Here's a complex case of contributing a movie to the database... There is an episodic movie "Stimulantia"... This Swedish movie is from 1967 and consists of 9 episodes filmed/compiled specifically for this movie. The DVD is a dutch release, part of "Ingmar Bergman Collectie"-series, and it is not yet in the database. The cast is "credited" in all kinds of ways, and it got me wondering, what is a credit?

In all episodes the directors introduce their movies in different ways, sometimes their names can be seen as subtitles for a while, while they are on screen, sometimes not. Do those subtitled names count as credits? I take it that all the directors themselves should be listed as cast, playing "himself" even though all they do are these introductions, but are they uncredited or credited, if they are only listed with such subtitles?

In some episodes the actors are listed before or after the episode, but many times not. For example, in one of the episodes, directed by Ingmar Bergman, he introduces his short film by mentioning that it is a compilation of editing of his home movies where he has filmed his son, Daniel (his wife, Daniel's mother, is also featured). He mentions, in a way "credits" these persons in his introduction, but they are not listed anywhere in text.

In one episode one of the directors again introduces his movie, with his name visible as a subtitle there, and he also mentions that in the following episode we can see Lena Granhagen playing a role. Again, Granhagen is not credited in text, only mentioned in this way, and the director himself appears also as uncredited actor, not as "himself" there...

Those were just a couple of examples, but the main question really is: what can be counted as credit? Does it have to be a listed name either in the beginning or at the end of a movie, or can it be "vocal" as in Bergman's example above?

The rules don't give any answer to this as far as I can see, so I guess I am only expecting opinions here, but - although I couldn't find a topic for this - is there any agreed way to handle cases such as those above?

Quoting northbloke:

Quote:
I would say that for the purposes of Profiler a credit has to be onscreen. However the verbal "credits" should make getting uncredited entries accepted a dead cert.

I had no idea what to suggest until Northbloke said this... which is a fab answer so I'll agree with it

Quoting skipnet50:

Quote:
The Rules absolutely provide an answer with clarity.

The first Rule is does the film has standard credits as defined by the Rules.

If a film does not have standard credits, use the following rules:

    * If a film has actors listed in the opening credits, which are not listed in the end credits, add these to the list in DVD Profiler before those taken from the end credits.
    * If a film has no end credits, but does have actors credited elsewhere, enter the actors from those credits.
    * If an actor is credited by name but does not have an associated role, you may use another source to identify the role. In each case, list Actor’s names and roles (when given) exactly as they are in the credits and in exactly the same order credited.

Skip

Yes, I did check the rules that you quoted, before I posted my message, but that doesn't offer the answer to what I asked. I understand that if actor is credited somewhere in the film, he/she should be entered as credited (vs. uncredited) in the cast list. The problem here and which is a big part of my question is however, does a verbal credit count? The rules definitely do not deal with that "in clarity" because they don't actually define the credit in this view at all.

Yes, I also understand that the 'standard' credits are those text lists in the beginning and/or at the end of the movie. Your bolded part of the rules state that "... have actors credited elsewhere". The question here is: is Ingmar Bergman's, the director's, spoken mentioning that "in the following short movie is my son" (words to that effect) a "credit elsewhere" or not?

Northbloke and Voltaire say that only the names that we can see on screen should be counted as credits for Profiler purposes, and I appreciate the view. I am looking for opinions here.

In other words: is the participating actor in the movie uncredited because his name isn't listed visibly anywhere, while he is clearly, verbally declared - by the director himself - as being participating actor in the movie?

English is not my first language, so I may not fully see the meaning of the word "credit". If it specifically means a written form of participation in a movie, then I will of course go with (uncredited)-option for those actors.

I agree with midnit, you now seem to be confusing the issue. There are television shows and movies that use a verbal credit system, in some cases even for Crew data. But you sound like you aretrying to create credits from somewhere besides the movie, a commentary or a featurette, for example. While that kind of information would certainly go to support an (uncredited) it does not add anything to calling an actor credited, noi matter who is making the statement.

Skip

Draxen, I know exactly what you are going thru. I just did a Cast & Crew for several Finnish TV-shows, some older, and they are really a nightmare to do propely.

In example there was a show (Tabu) where none of the Crew had "roles", just a list of names and no clue which one of them is the director, writer and so on. In one episode they were credited just by their first names...talking about investigative work   

In other case there is a traveller show (Madventures) where one of the hosts is credited "Traveler#1: Tunna". That's all...Many of us here in Finland knows that "Tunna" equals Tuomas Milonoff, but is Tunna his role in that show or is it nick name for Tuomas? I think it is both. I still didn't go Tuomas Milonoff Credited as Tunna, Role: Tunna.

IMO, niether subtitles nor audio are "standard credits" according to the rules. Therefore, IMO again, uncredited must be used.

I once did the UK profile for Dixie Chicks: Shut Up and Sing (5060116721874) where there were no credits for the cast. I watched the entire dvd and added each actor whose name appeared on screen as uncredited using as role the description as on screen.

This profile was accepted. I just see now looking at it again that maybe i should have alphabetized the cast but now they're just credited in the order they appear in.

Any comment on wether i'd have to change this?

Paul

Quoting dee1959jay:

Quote:
I'd say: if their names appeared on screen, they're not uncredited. Credited in an unusual way or place perhaps, but not uncredited. So certainly no need to alphabetize the cast. You could remove the "uncredited" though.

Also if my memory serves me right, some 'actors' are 'credited' multiple times, sometimes with different 'roles'. Should i watch the whole dvd again and credited some people twice using the different onscreen 'roles'?

Paul