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Why Conservatives Just Lovve McCain (Locked)
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
Who is John Galt?
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Draxen:
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1) I suppose FUBAR was referring to the current invasion of Iraq, which eventually started as a result of the attack on WTC - not the first war due to the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq


This assertion is completely false.  The second Iraqi war had nothing to do with 9/11.

Quoting Draxen:
Quote:

2) That short quote doesn't specify any action to catch any individual terrorist, but "terrorist targets" which of course is very different matter altogether


You must take this in context.  He ws specifically talking about Bin Laden at the time!

Quoting Draxen:
Quote:
3) If Obama decided to take action against terrorist targets in Pakistan, as in that quote, I don't think it would be much different from the times when U.S troops hunted down the taliban fighters on the border area between Afghanistan and Pakistan. I don't think I am much wrong here, if I say that the Afghanistan/Pakistan-border operations were very much motivated by finding a certain individual, not to mention the hunt for Saddam during the same conflict.


Except that we are in Afghanistan at the invitation og the Afghan government and have had permission of the Pakistan government to patrol those border areas...so yes it is very differnent than what Obama suggested.

Quoting Draxen:
Quote:
I admit that I haven't been following everything the presidential candidates have been saying during the campaign, but based on solely that quote by Barack Obama, I wouldn't worry too much about his war mongerism.


It is his inexperience in dealing with international issues as demonstrated by these kinds of statements that concerns me.  It's one thing to do this as a candidate.  It could be devastating as President!
Hal
 Last edited: by hal9g
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
Who is John Galt?
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Quoting sugarjoe:
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Well, then 'the blantant violation of the sovereignity of another country' can be acceptable, if this country is Iraq, right?



Apparently you are incapable of comprehension and I will not waste my time explaining something to someone who does not have the capacity to comprehend.
Hal
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Quoting sugarjoe:
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Quoting hal9g:
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Quoting sugarjoe:
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Quoting hal9g:
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Blatant violation of the sovereignty of another country is not acceptable behavior for any country, regardless of the individual involved. 


Does that mean you also oppose the US invasion in Irak?



There is no comparison between the situation in Iraq and pursuing an INDIVIDUAL terrorist!
...
Trying to link gettign a single terrorist with what happened in Iraq is simply absurd.



Well, then 'the blantant violation of the sovereignity of another country' can be acceptable, if this country is Iraq, right?

He who will not learn from history is destined to repeat it.

Skip
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantDraxen
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Quoting Dan W:
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Quoting Draxen:
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Quoting hal9g:
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Quoting sugarjoe:
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Quoting hal9g:
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Blatant violation of the sovereignty of another country is not acceptable behavior for any country, regardless of the individual involved. 


Does that mean you also oppose the US invasion in Irak?



There is no comparison between the situation in Iraq and pursuing an INDIVIDUAL terrorist!

Not only did Iraq invade its neighbor Kuwait, and murder its own citizens with chemical weapons, it also ignored 17 UN resolutions.

I really don't think we need to revisit everything that led up to the war in Iraq.

Trying to link gettign a single terrorist with what happened in Iraq is simply absurd.


Not wishing to delve deep into these political discussions, but just a couple of points:

1) I suppose FUBAR was referring to the current invasion of Iraq, which eventually started as a result of the attack on WTC - not the first war due to the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq

2) That short quote doesn't specify any action to catch any individual terrorist, but "terrorist targets" which of course is very different matter altogether

3) If Obama decided to take action against terrorist targets in Pakistan, as in that quote, I don't think it would be much different from the times when U.S troops hunted down the taliban fighters on the border area between Afghanistan and Pakistan. I don't think I am much wrong here, if I say that the Afghanistan/Pakistan-border operations were very much motivated by finding a certain individual, not to mention the hunt for Saddam during the same conflict.

I admit that I haven't been following everything the presidential candidates have been saying during the campaign, but based on solely that quote by Barack Obama, I wouldn't worry too much about his war mongerism.

Click the second link in my earlier post. It isn't as simple as the quote you site, would imply.


I checked the link you pointed, and yes I agree, the quote really should be listened to that context. But on the other hand, I am listening to him as I would listen to any politician running for major office even in my own country: with a great dose of cynicism. I caught the bolded words "if we had actionable intelligence of high valued terrorist targets...". Those two adjectives there are back-doors and excuses to be used whenever required. Politicians love those. Whatever any politician say just before elections must be listened to as an advertisement or self-endorsement.

The message here by Obama must have been to "inform" uncertain voters, and/or those that distrust him due to his inexperience, that he is not back-stepping from aggressive / pro-active foreign policy if there is need for that. Whatever hypothetical situations he is commenting on in his interviews, his statements do not bind him to any action at all after the election - he knows it.
Mika
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Quoting hal9g:
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It is just slightly hypocritical, IMHO.

There's nothing slight about it, Hal.
Another Ken (not Ken Cole)
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Quoting kdh1949:
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Quoting hal9g:
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It is just slightly hypocritical, IMHO.

There's nothing slight about it, Hal.


I see nothing hypocritical.  I figure liberals aren't always peaceniks as conservatives aren't always war mongerers.
Graham
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Quoting hal9g:
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Quoting sugarjoe:
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Well, then 'the blantant violation of the sovereignity of another country' can be acceptable, if this country is Iraq, right?



Apparently you are incapable of comprehension and I will not waste my time explaining something to someone who does not have the capacity to comprehend.


Translation: I do not have an answer to this so I try to discredit my opponent
 Last edited: by sugarjoe
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
Who is John Galt?
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Quoting sugarjoe:
Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Quoting sugarjoe:
Quote:

Well, then 'the blantant violation of the sovereignity of another country' can be acceptable, if this country is Iraq, right?



Apparently you are incapable of comprehension and I will not waste my time explaining something to someone who does not have the capacity to comprehend.


Translation: I do not have an answer to this so I try to discredit my opponent


Whatever makes you feel better.
Hal
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Quoting Daddy DVD:
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Quoting Rifter:
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It'll be a tossup as to whether he starts another world war or we go into a full blown depression first.

Obama starting another world war? Don't make me laugh.



OK, let's play devil's advocate here.  Obama wins.  Sometime between Nov 4 and Jan 20, Israel makes a strike against Iran's nuclear facilities because they know that once Obama takes office, they will likely lose a lot of the support they currently have from the US.  If that happens, there is a very real possibility that several of the Arab countries will declare war on Israel, sensing that the US will not back them as we have in the past.

Or, let's say that Russia marches on Georgia.  What do you suppose Obama will do?  I can think of several other scenarios that could easily lead to a massive war, all because Obama is untried, untested, and has no foreign policy experience.
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
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Quoting Daddy DVD:
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I don't think if you say it may be necessary to take appropriate action against terrorist groups who fled to and/or are hiding in Pakistan will increase their strength or cause a world war. There's a difference in telling everyone what you might do and what you really will do if you're able to.



Words mean things.  Obama has said that if he thinks Pakistan isn't doing enough to fight terrorism, he will take preemptive action.  Pakistan is a sovereign nation, whatever we might think of it and the people ruling it.  You don't just haul off and attack inside a sovereign nation that is supposed to be our ally because you aren't satisfied with how fast they do what we ask of them.  That's how you make friends into enemies.
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantSnark
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Quoting Rifter:
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OK, let's play devil's advocate here.  Obama wins.  Sometime between Nov 4 and Jan 20, Israel makes a strike against Iran's nuclear facilities because they know that once Obama takes office, they will likely lose a lot of the support they currently have from the US.  If that happens, there is a very real possibility that several of the Arab countries will declare war on Israel, sensing that the US will not back them as we have in the past.

Or, let's say that Russia marches on Georgia.  What do you suppose Obama will do?  I can think of several other scenarios that could easily lead to a massive war, all because Obama is untried, untested, and has no foreign policy experience.


Welll... what if?

No matter what occurs the incoming president will be going into their first term with their options severely limited by the misadventures of the current administration.  Our military is already overstreched and committed.

If Isreal is foolish enough to strike in the feeble hope of delaying Iran's nuclear development for a couple of years then they're making a big gamble given our current military commitment.  I don't think they're that stupid frankly.

And if Georgia gets invaded....  It's the same scenario under McCain OR Obama.  They get sanctions.  End of story.  There isn't going to be an armed conflict with Russia over Georgia in any case and Russia knows it.  McCain sure isn't going to scare them one jot.

I don't think we need to worry that Obama is unwilling to use force.  Everything he has stated (particularly his clear understanding of where the terrorists actually are) shows that he is indeed willing to use force.  The difference is that he seems capable of doing so with a degree of aim that we haven't seen lately. 

Destroy the actual terrorists that attacked us...?  Or attack an uninvolved party because they might someday be a threat.  What a concept...
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
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Quoting pauls42:
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Quoting skipnet50:
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Well, Joe there does seem to be particular behavior that goes with left-leaning people and i don't know why. It is possible that left and right cannot meet in the middle, that certainly seems to be the political atmosphere here the last 20 years or so, the democrats and the Republicans seem absolutely incapable of working together as they once did.<shrugs>

Skip


would you categorise any typical behaviour of right wing people in the same way as you categorise left leaning people?


While there are fringe elements in both parties that are so radical one way or the other that they can be largely ignored.  The average leftist however, see no problem with demonizing the average rightist, rather that treating them as just someone who has a differing opinion.  On average, when a Republican screws up, the GOP usually forces them to resign (Nixon is the prime example), while the Democrats will usually rally around the person and try to deflect criticism (as in Al Gore and the Dems in Congress gathering on the White House lawn to cover Clinton when he lied to the grand jury).

There are other things, but that basically covers the basic behavior.
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantRifter
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Quoting sugarjoe:
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Quoting hal9g:
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Blatant violation of the sovereignty of another country is not acceptable behavior for any country, regardless of the individual involved. 


Does that mean you also oppose the US invasion in Irak?


Who said anything about invading Iraq?  But yes, we were authorized, if only because they had violated the UN mandates that they agree to after the first Gulf War.
John

"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again!
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantSnark
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Quoting Rifter:
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Who said anything about invading Iraq?  But yes, we were authorized, if only because they had violated the UN mandates that they agree to after the first Gulf War.


No. Bush tried to get the UN to sign off on it but they did not do so.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
Who is John Galt?
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Quoting Snark:
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Quoting Rifter:
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Who said anything about invading Iraq?  But yes, we were authorized, if only because they had violated the UN mandates that they agree to after the first Gulf War.


No. Bush tried to get the UN to sign off on it but they did not do so.


He didn't say the UN authorized us.  Tell me you're not one of those that believes we should not take any military action that is not authorized by the U.N.!

Why in the world are we talking about invading Iraq, anyway?

In spite of the revisionist versions that have been put forth in this thread, anybody who really wants to understand why we invaded Iraq simply needs to spend a very minimal amount of time doing some research....and not on left-wing blogs!

It's amazing how short memories actually are and how quickly facts can get morphed into pure fantasy, like th proposition earlier in this thread that we invaded Iraq because of 9/11.  That is sheer delusion!
Hal
 Last edited: by hal9g
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantSnark
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Quoting hal9g:
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He didn't say the UN authorized us.  Tell me you're not one of those that believes we should not take any military action that is not authorized by the U.N.!


It certainly seemed implied in his statement as he used the UN violations as the reason.  But no, I don't think we need the UN to take appropriate military action.  But if we're going to go it unilaterally we better have a reason and be right.

Quote:
In spite of the revisionist versions that have been put forth in this thread, anybody who really wants to understand why we invaded Iraq simply needs to spend a very minimal amount of time doing some research....and not on left-wing blogs!

It's amazing how short memories actually are and how quickly facts can get morphed into pure fantasy, like th proposition earlier in this thread that we invaded Iraq because of 9/11.  That is sheer delusion!


I don't visit any leftwing blogs so I am not sure what they would have to say on the subject.  I don't let either "wing" do my thinking for me.  I do my own research and make my own judgements.

I do agree with you in principal.  It doesn't take much research and it wasn't because of 9/11. 
 Last edited: by Snark
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