Skip,
I agree with what you call "WSIWYT". I like the idea that I will look at my profiler and see the name as it appears in the credits (all caps aside), and like many of the rules, it is objective. What I also want is a database that links my actors together. The arguments surrounding common names, as credited, etc. are because of an imperfect system, albeit perhaps a theoretically workable one. Although I recognise that some users want the "common name" displaying, I am not in that camp (perhaps we need a display option in the program... WSIWYT as default, common name as opt-in). Those people aside, I think 9 times out of 10 people are supporting the same stance as you. We all sometimes have trouble clearly explaining what it is we want, and the emotional investment in this area seems quite high, making it harder still.

W0m

jgilligan:

Thank you for the thoughtful non-hostile response. So I will try.

The problem is that the ONLINE is NEVER ever going to be abl;e yo serve the needs of each and every user, it just isn't possible. The Asian name is a good case in point, this has been chewed over a gnashed about for years. A close analogy to this issue is the SortTitle field, users used to be able to provide that data, and some would want all of a group together, perfectly reasonable from a single user POV, thus we would see users providing SortTitle=James Bond 04, instead of Thunderball, I remember one user that wanted to sort Bond buy NOVEL order not even film, again perfectly reasonable  from a single user POV, but neither are any good when you are dealing with 500,000 users. You're probably not going to think, maybe they sorted Thunderball this way, you are going to look for Thunderball. Ken made a public statement that Sort=Title, this did no good, so he finally  had to make this privately sortable only, a strictly local solution.

The Asian name is similar, the idea is for the Credits to mirror the way the data appears On SCreen for my statements in this regard and nearly every statement where I try very hard to explain the thought process that was behind the rule, I am denigrated and insulted repeatedly, all I am trying to do is explain and help, right now Zhang Ziyi is Zhang Ziyi NOT Ziyi Zhang (unless that is the way the credit appears. We have no direct search for Actors and Crew names for the Online, so at present time, any deviation from from the On Screen display, like Sort Title is a local issue, again I hace been denigrated and insulted for this but...some pretend that they know more than they do even. I want to find some sort of a system that will allow for the Asian Names to be displayed in their native form, while remaining true to the Actual Credit. The best way, today, is to expand the usage of the CLT to allow for this data, though this has its own share of problems which I fear some users would exploit, perhaps  the coirrect terminology would be Native Form as opposed to say real name or correct name. But, at the same time we all recognize the problems with the CLT and further Ken has said he is going to revisit the linking system, so this may actually better put off and lived with as is (being local) until such time as we see what Ken is up to, then perhaps we can sort something out, I hope so.

But when I see comments such as the last one that was made by my friend xradman, or suffer the denigartion, attacks and personal insults that are thrown at me...what else am I to think but that the users doing this are not interested in the Rules but are searching for a way to interjecrt their personal bias into the online that affects ALL users. Yes, I see those attitudes as a direct attack on something that took years to develop, it is not perfect and it never will be and they will continue to evolve, but sometimes we have to be patient and live with something, it was five year before Ken gae us additional Crew beyond Director, patience. YTrust me, the Asian name as well as many other users I am personally watching very closely at what people say and suggest and ALL i ask of them is to understand the yardstick that was used and WHY, the purpose of the Online versus the Local, and then let's discuss ideas for the which we may be implement in the future, instead of coming across like they want it implemented RIGHT NOW, I don't have that ability, I'll continue to do what I can to help, in whatever form that is.

Skip

Quoting CharlieM:

Quote:
I think I will put in my cent and a half.

1.  There are rules that are easy to follow, that still get ignored (NO IMDB COPY).  I still see people try to slip these through.

2.  There are certain rules that need clarification?  There seems to be some items that are constantly argued about, by people that have been around for a while.

3. [b] Data in the database has many errors that need to be corrected.
[/b]
4.  The common name approach is not perfect

While I think each of these points are all important, i think the first 2 need to be dealt with first.  We all need to be on the same page with contributions and data.  Maybe it is time to get a committee together and analyze each section of the rules, and see where we might be able to clear some ambiguity.  Get some definite clarity into the rules, where a majority can understand, and get the community back involved as a whole.  I understand that we can only give input, but I would have to believe that Ken would accept a proper update/rewrite to sections that needed it.

The 3rd item is a tad more in depth.  It is going to take a lot more than a few users to correct all the problems that are in the database.  Somehow, we have to get a majority of the community actually involved.  With, what 300000+ profiles, there is a lot of fixing that needs to get done.  We are going to have to listen and guide in the forums and contribution voting.  The insults and personal attacks need to go away.  With proper communication and etiquette, we should be able to communicate and debate, instead of whine and argue.  If we get more civility back in the forums, people would return/participate.  Believe it or not, a lot of new members don't get involved because of the arguing and hostility.

I feel that the first three items are going to have to be dealt with before we get anything that will be worthwhile on a common name, key name, or what ever you want to call it.  With all the errors that are in the database, especially on 2nd and third tier actors and crew, we have no true way to even begin to acknowledge what is common.  This must somehow be addressed.

Most of the ideas I have read in this thread all would seem to need major rewrites of client and server code (next major release??).  I do like the idea of a primary key.  I have no idea what it would take to implement on the current data set that we have.  It would be feasable, i'm sure, but at what cost in time in coding and upgrading.

In all, I really think that this program has the potential to be better and more accurate than anything else, but we have to keep the eye on the goal.

Charlie:

The program will always get better and will evolve. Believe it, or not, I still think <gasp> that totalluy Open Credits are the way to fly and I believe that more with each and every passing day. Why do I say that? Skip are you NUTS do you know what that means...Yes I do.<ducking> But the users who will do no more than they are required to do have convinced me of th importance of this, then we can WSIWYT the crew, just like we are supposed to do with the Actors. The users who will not do more than they have to are doing the Community a disservice I would argue, simply listing Make-Up Artist, when the actual credit is Makeup Artist to Mr. Magly deprives us of important contextual information which is also useful not only for the record but provides texture to the data. Which is why I include that information in my notes, even though I am not required to.

Your two points that i bolded. This what I try and do by and large, I can't spin on a dime and add a clarification, as I don't have editorial control, I can try and explain the thought process that went into it. Arguing with me over it doesn't change the thought process and denigrating and/or insulting, or someone pretending that they know more than I or DanW regarding the thought process is only going to anger me and make me dig my heels in harder. I want to engage in discussion, that can only help the program and i hope Ken and Gerri, and i will do what I can within my limitations.

Let me also thank both you and W0m for your thoughtful replies.

Skip

Paul:

The Rules in all cases are based on HARD DATA, Hard Data is simoply data that is what it is, be it Overview or end credits, the same data appears on any given release(UPC) to all users in the same form, there may be variations from Region to Region or from release to release. There is not a single instance that allows for user-interpreted data. Your reference to "good data" is users defining what they think is "good data" and if that data is not based on hard data then it is not "good data", it might be user-preferred but that does not make it good, that very issue is why the Rules were developed. Every user used to provide his own definition of "good" data, be it SortTitle, Actor/Crew Name or Roles or whatever your favorite piece of data poison is. It comes down to what is best for ALL users, ANY form of user-interpreted data or HARD DATA and allowing users to then manipulate that fata locally. Having lived through the Old Days of Profiler's version of the Wild Wild West, user-intrerpreted data in ANY form is bad for the Online. I don't care what you(generic) THINK a name is listed as, I care what it really is listed as, anything else in this regard should be dealt with through linking. I don't care what someone's REAL name is that is more of a Trivia question, I can see allowing for "Native Name" display to allow for cultural distinctions, but even at that...I have seen users make absurd claims such as it should be displayed this way because it is Asian and no further documentation, that is just bogus. If you can't or won't document your claim, and I don't care what the claim is, sometime this can be easuy and sometimes more difficult, then don't make th Contribution because you(generic again) aren't serving the Community.

The only exception for this is re-releases(same UPC) where they may change Covers or even Overviews and that too is covered in the Rules.

NOte: I have seen rare instances where evn hard data may be subject to interpretation by different users, such as where a paragraph begins in an overview,or one user sees bold type and another does not, these are rare but it does happen now and again and in such cases I would never replace my opinion of what I am seeing with that of what another sees.

Skip

Skip

Deejay:

If Paul is referring tp tweaks. That i have also dealt with in my discussions. I don't have editorial control, if i had many of the tweaks would have already been dealt with one way or another. But I can't do that, and all the continued andf repeated discussions lead to is frustration for all, and we can't do anything to change it, so all we can do is practice patience as hard as that is. And all I can say is, tweak or not, in the here and now I can't accept a tweak, until ken does, even if I agree with a tweak and many times I do.

Trust me, when something should be tweaked, I want it tweaked yesterday, but...I can't.

Skip

I understand that, grave and there are several ways to do it. But the thing I am stressing is that they can't be done NOW. They will take a modificatiion of the Program/and/or Rules to achieve. That means tomorrow, but not now. As I have said I don't like the way the Common Name was implemented, whether Ken will polish it, take it in some other direction or whatever remains to seen, there are numerous possibilities, we have to wait and be patient, I know its hard but...

Skip

Quoting Dr Pavlov:

Quote:
Paul:

The Rules in all cases are based on HARD DATA, Hard Data is simoply data that is what it is, be it Overview or end credits, the same data appears on any given release(UPC) to all users in the same form, there may be variations from Region to Region or from release to release. There is not a single instance that allows for user-interpreted data.

This is just not true. If the credits at the start and/or end of a film always used the same "words" in listing crew roles you might have a case, but they don't. Add films with the credits in languages other than English and even more user-interpretation is needed. This is not a bad thing, but to claim that you never need to interpret the data is sticking you head in the sand.

Quote:
Your reference to "good data" is users defining what they think is "good data" and if that data is not based on hard data then it is not "good data", it might be user-preferred but that does not make it good, that very issue is why the Rules were developed. Every user used to provide his own definition of "good" data, be it SortTitle, Actor/Crew Name or Roles or whatever your favorite piece of data poison is.

Why do you assume that by "good" data, I meant changing names to something other than what is shown on the screen. I value the data as shown in the credits, but in some cases some interpretation is need to make it useful. I don't need a mindless snapshot of the credits, I have the DVD for that.

Quote:
It comes down to what is best for ALL users, ANY form of user-interpreted data or HARD DATA and allowing users to then manipulate that fata locally. Having lived through the Old Days of Profiler's version of the Wild Wild West, user-intrerpreted data in ANY form is bad for the Online. I don't care what you(generic) THINK a name is listed as, I care what it really is listed as, anything else in this regard should be dealt with through linking. I don't care what someone's REAL name is that is more of a Trivia question, I can see allowing for "Native Name" display to allow for cultural distinctions, but even at that...I have seen users make absurd claims such as it should be displayed this way because it is Asian and no further documentation, that is just bogus. If you can't or won't document your claim, and I don't care what the claim is, sometime this can be easuy and sometimes more difficult, then don't make th Contribution because you(generic again) aren't serving the Community.

The only exception for this is re-releases(same UPC) where they may change Covers or even Overviews and that too is covered in the Rules.

NOte: I have seen rare instances where evn hard data may be subject to interpretation by different users, such as where a paragraph begins in an overview,or one user sees bold type and another does not, these are rare but it does happen now and again and in such cases I would never replace my opinion of what I am seeing with that of what another sees.

Skip

Skip

Many (most?) users of DVDProfiler would like full name linking, for many actors this is easy to get. Most actors here in the US are billed using the same name in all of their films. When you add US releases of films from Japan, Korea and China to the mix you get a real mess. Some recent films show a "Roman" version of the name and/or role in the credits, but many do not. For films that don't, most will show the "major" cast and crew in the subtitles, but the spelling and name order changes from film to film. For a collection like yours with very few non-English language films this is not a major issue. With 229 films from Japan, Korea and China in my collection the issue is far larger!

pdf

Quoting W0m6at:

Quote:

As you stated, it's most. For US actors, if you include voice-actors, you can still end up with real issues for cross-linking. Someone like Vittra, who I know has a strong anime element to his collection would probably have seen this. A(n) (f)actual example:
James Lyon aka
Jamieson Price aka
Jamieson K. Price aka
Taylor Henry

Official site (I notice he's been in live-action films and television too)
Anime News Network
IMDb

The one major advantage US (and all other English-language) productions have is that you don't have additional pseudo-variations in names created by different romanisations. For DVD Profiler purposes, sometimes third parties are relied upon by SOME users (myself included) for that romanisation.

Thank you Wom6at. I do have more anime titles than hollywood titles so this common name issue hits me pretty hard. Just to show some of you what I'm talking about, take a look at the following profile if you want to take the time to download it:

The Twelve Kingdoms (631595054279)

This profile, which granted has 5 discs in it, has more than 100 credited as entries, with over 20 different VAs, all verified and contributed by myself. These voice actors are all relatively popular and are in many more titles. The fact that a user such as myself has to do all this work just to get 1 title to link is a bit much to ask of most people. I enjoy auditing titles for the most part, but it would be far more proficient to simply create a link once, rather than doing the same thing over and over again, not to mention the countless amounts of times I have to replicate the documentation.

Some voice actors have over 10 aliases they use to avoid union issues, since they only join the union as one of their names. The above example is hardly a rarity either, but I'm sure that anime or maybe animation in general, suffer from the common name system we have in place more so than the average hollywood film does.