Quoting Pantheon:

Quote:
I obviously haven't expressed myself clearly enough.

It is not the discussion of Prop 8 that I object to. It is not even the fact that I think politics is better left out of this forum (general discussion section or not).

What I object to is words like: aberrant, sinful, abnormal and unnatural being thrown about as though it's ok to say that about me and my lifestyle. Of course I'm going to be personally offended by this sort of language.

I simply don't understand why a discussion on this subject can't be held without resorting to name-calling.
(...)

If that was your objection, then you are correct, you weren't making yourself clear enough.  I can see how those words would be offensive.  They are derogatory remarks, aimed at a specific group, and could be seen as a violation of the forum rules.  In that context, I understand your requrest and withdraw my previous disagreement.

Quoting bbursiek:

Quote:
I'm sure you'd be "happy" if you succeeded in censoring the views you don't agree with.

Once again a personal slur. Once again - you do not know me. Once again, you missed the point of my complaints.

Quoting bbursiek:

Quote:
If people's sexuality is determined at birth and is so cut and dry then why do people like Anne Heche keep switching sides so to speak?

Because there is some called bisexuality.
This might possibly be enough to make some peoples head explode: all(1) human beings are to a certain degree bisexual. Anne Heche might be one of those individuals who simply don't care what sex the person she love has.


cya, Mithi

PS "all" or "many", there are different scientific doctrines running around

Quoting Pantheon:

Quote:

To me the use of these words speaks volumes about intolerance and prejudice.

And to me, characterizing people in this manner because they express their belief systems, is tantamount to using the word racist.  It is inflammatory and meant for one purpose only and that is to marginalize their belief system and try to prevent them from expressing themselves.  It is no less intolerant than what you believe them to be.

Speaking for myself only, my statement that got both you and Unicus going started with these two words: "I believe....."

I am sorry, but you cannot argue with what I believe.  It is a fact that the things I stated after that were things that I believe.  If I had said, "It is a fact that...." then it would be left open for argument.

You are entitled to believe whatever you like.  You should afford others the same latitude in return, as long as their belief is not manifested in some intolerant or discriminatory behavior.

Could it be your belief you expressed, that is viewed as intolerant or discriminatory? I remember the saying, 'If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all'

Rick

EDIT

Retracting this post as it was an expression of my frustration directed at Rico unfairly.

I guess the next question is: Is further discussion going to be beneficial or not?

Wow, what a controversial argument in this thread.  I am sure I will hate myself for posting in this thread, but I feel both sides are arguing to no avail simply because belief systems are impossible to overcome.

This issue of "Gay Marriage" is controversial because to within most hardcore religious doctrine, homosexuality is a "sin".  Now you can make the argument that gays marrying doesn't hurt anyone else and argue that religion should have no say in this situation, but ultimately the sanctity of marriage is founded within religion doctrine; merely calling it a contract between 2 people is not 100% accurate.

This is where things get tricky.  Agnostics and atheists will argue that religious doctrine has no ground here and the religious right will argue marriage is an act before God etc...you will never reach common ground.

The other aspect of this argument that is a double edged sword is when someone who lives a gay lifestyle takes offense with those who openly say "homosexuality is sin in the eyes of God".  You can take offense all you want with this comment, but that is a strong belief within almost all religions and when it comes to discrimination vs. belief systems you cannot win; just look at abortion, an ever unsolvable issue if you ask me!!!

Belief systems are inherently impossible to overcome.  You can argue they are ignorant and intolerant but for those who are strong in their faith you will never sway their viewpoint.  Within those belief systems there is also little to zero lattitude.  Throughout our history as a race we have killed each other over religious doctrine and we see religion still in this modern day and age as a catalyst for death and murder and genocide.

No matter how much you plead for understanding and tolerance for "gay lifestyle" you will never win the acceptance of most religious groups.  I myself am a live and let live kind of person, but I can not say that at times I have not succumbed to stereotypes and bigotry.  Having said that I have many gay friends, it is their choice and I don't question it, but I have argued vehemotly that gay marriage will always be frowned upon as long the religious right is able to cast their votes within this country and to say they are wrong is to attempt to invalidate their beliefs as well and is equally intolerable in my opinion!!!