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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Vote on Hong Kong/Asian movie actor 'community' name! |
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| Author |
Message |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 302 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting paulb_99: Quote:
Quoting madacid:
Quote:
I didn't change any appereance, skip. (and btw. I'm not wrong. No matter how often you repeat this like a prayer wheel)
Again,I just split the "on-screen-credit"-value into the 3 name-fields the program forced me to do. (First Name, Middle Name, Last Name). "von Sylow" "van Damme" "Bonham Carter" are "last names"=surnames=family-name, so I enered them into this field. I know, "Chow" and "Tsui" are family-names too, so I entered them into the "last name"-field as well. That's deductive logic of database-structure. (someone who don't get this maybe should use MSWord instead for collecting information?)
And if the entered data deviate from the "on screen credit" (e.g. due to cultural matters) the "as credited" field could absorb this flaw.
But would you change the order of this credit had there been one name field? Also, this requires people to actually KNOW about the namestructure in asian countries, something i think you can't expect from people contibuting. What if he is credited as Hark Tsui and someone not really knowledgeable on asian names thinks, 'oh yeah i have to put the first part of the name as last name' you then have a incorrect credit of Tsui Hark, which again doesn't link, is not supported by the credits and is wrong using asian name rules.
Therefore i completely agree with skip, enter EXACTLY as credited and use credited as where needed. But as i said before, a single name field would solve a lot of these discussions and make it easier for people to contribute.
Paul just changing/combining the 3 name-fields just to one will solve the problem, because I'm not forced to guess blind. If the credits said: Chan Yuen-Lung .. Black Bear studentyou can enter " Black Bear student" to Person's Role-field (formely known as "credited as"-field) you can enter " Chan Yuen-Lung" to Person's Credit-field (formely known as "role"-field) (this method would achieve our maxime to collection the on-screen-credits at it's best) in addition a new field "common name" could be a solution to combine the several different names to just one person. to complete my example this could be: common name = Jackie Chan(and the method to selecting this common name could be the CLT) | | | regards, Mad -
My HD-Media, DVDs, Laserdiscs | | | | Last edited: by madacid |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Tim: That is an interpretation, nothing more. I don't care what you think it means. If it were to mean FAMILY name we would have used FAMILY name. Do you not comprehend that words have meaning expecially in Programming. I don't know why you people don't understand the simplest of concepts and then worse yet think you are right when you are dead wrong. It appears to me that quite possibly when the Rules were developed the community was credited with more intelligence than was deserved...and more common sense.  Skip <shakes head> | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,722 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
That is an interpretation, nothing more. I don't care what you think it means. Right back at ya! It would help this discussion a lot if you could finally understand that YOUR point of view is just another interpretation or opinion as the next one. You say: "If it were to mean FAMILY name we would have used FAMILY name." I say: if it were to mean "Last Word" we would have used "Last Word". There is absolutely no indication whatsoever that your preference is more "valid" than mine, or anyone else's. You can keep repeating that you're right, but it won't help. That's all I'm saying. Quote:
It appears to me that quite possibly when the Rules were developed the community was credited with more intelligence than was deserved...and more common sense. That I may have to agree with: the community doesn't seem to be able to agree on ANYTHING that isn't prescribed by the rules in a very specific manner. Although we have to keep in minds that lots of the "sane" users have left the forums a long time ago. We're now stuck with a few hardliners that don't appear to have any common sense at all - or at least refuse to apply it - and apparently only collect data for the sake of collecting data, instead of aiming for data that is actually useful and accurate. Unfortunately, you yourself have shown time and time again that you belong in that category. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
Last Name does not mean Family Name.
It does, IMHO. In any case: it certainly doesn't mean "Last Word". To follow your own line of reasoning: if "Last Word" was intended, then that's what would have been used in the program. But that's not the case. As long as it's called "Last Name" and there's no further guidance, there WILL be users who use it to enter what they recognize as someone's "last name" into it. It's unavoidable. You can, of course, keep stating your opinion over and over again, but it won't change that simple fact. Of course it doesn't mean "last word". A name is made of names: first name, last name, etc. For instance "Victor Von Doom" is made of two names: Victor // Von Doom. So is "Chow Yun-Fat". A name made of two names. Only problem: how to enter it? I can see the merits of both sides, I fully understand what you say, but I also think we should look at what is best for the program and for a database of DVD CREDITS contributed by a large number of users. Do you remember what you said in the thread on Media Company names? Let me quote you (I hope you don't mind): Quote:
Although I fully understand your concerns, again I have to point out that there's absolutely no way you can expect the average user to be able to distinguish in this manner between the various logos that he sees on the cover.
I say just the same on Chinese names. Although I fully understand your concerns, I have to point out that there's absolutely no way you can expect the average user to be able to distinguish in this manner between the order of names that he sees on the screen.  | | | | -- Enry |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Tim:
Like I said perhaps we credited the Community with more intelligence than it deserved. You were not involved at any phase of the process so ALL you have is an ill-informed opinion. You clearly have no comprehension of the precise nature of programming and the part that words play in the process. like I said had the Program been looking for FAMILY name, it would have used Family name wouldn't it, then this discussion over your inability to comprehend the nature of words would be unneccessary. Right.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Tim:
The REAL problem comes not from inability to comprehend, but an unwillingness to accept any kind of guidance and a desire on the part of some users, yourself included, to do things the way you want them done, thus creating a bad product for ALL. One that is based on the fiction of user interpretation and imagination not data.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 863 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting madacid: Quote:
Quoting paulb_99:
Quote:
Quoting madacid:
Quote:
I didn't change any appereance, skip. (and btw. I'm not wrong. No matter how often you repeat this like a prayer wheel)
Again,I just split the "on-screen-credit"-value into the 3 name-fields the program forced me to do. (First Name, Middle Name, Last Name). "von Sylow" "van Damme" "Bonham Carter" are "last names"=surnames=family-name, so I enered them into this field. I know, "Chow" and "Tsui" are family-names too, so I entered them into the "last name"-field as well. That's deductive logic of database-structure. (someone who don't get this maybe should use MSWord instead for collecting information?)
And if the entered data deviate from the "on screen credit" (e.g. due to cultural matters) the "as credited" field could absorb this flaw.
But would you change the order of this credit had there been one name field? Also, this requires people to actually KNOW about the namestructure in asian countries, something i think you can't expect from people contibuting. What if he is credited as Hark Tsui and someone not really knowledgeable on asian names thinks, 'oh yeah i have to put the first part of the name as last name' you then have a incorrect credit of Tsui Hark, which again doesn't link, is not supported by the credits and is wrong using asian name rules.
Therefore i completely agree with skip, enter EXACTLY as credited and use credited as where needed. But as i said before, a single name field would solve a lot of these discussions and make it easier for people to contribute.
Paul just changing/combining the 3 name-fields just to one will solve the problem, because I'm not forced to guess blind.
If the credits said:
Chan Yuen-Lung .. Black Bear student
you can enter "Black Bear student" to Person's Role-field (formely known as "credited as"-field)
you can enter "Chan Yuen-Lung" to Person's Credit-field (formely known as "role"-field)
(this method would achieve our maxime to collection the on-screen-credits at it's best)
in addition a new field "common name" could be a solution to combine the several different names to just one person.
to complete my example this could be:
common name = Jackie Chan
(and the method to selecting this common name could be the CLT) Sorry, but i don't undertsnad why you'd want to change the Credited as field to Role field, and the role field to credited. All i suggest (and think will solve a lot of discussion) is to combine the three name fields into on single name field. Thereby completely getting rid of these parsing discussions. The name and role fields don't hve to be swapped. So instead of Chow//Yun-fat - Chow/Yun/Fat - Yun-fat//Chow - Yun/Fat/Chow, or any version i've missed, we have Chow Yun-fat, or any other commenly credited name, where credited differently we just use the credited as. The way we already (should) do now. Paul |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,722 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting EnryWiki: Quote:
I have to point out that there's absolutely no way you can expect the average user to be able to distinguish in this manner between the order of names that he sees on the screen. And I fully agree! Personally, I know next to nothing about Chinese names - I'm happy to admit that. I've done my best to not even take a side in this argument, because I just don't know. I'm just very much against "word counting". The point I'm trying to make is that there ARE people who ARE able to distinguish which part of what they see on-screen is the person's "last name", and without further guidance from Invelos, they WILL automatically put it in the "last name" field. I'm not one of those people, but still. My own concern is linking: I couldn't care less what "common name" we use for this actor. For all I care we use "actorID_858356876"... As long as we can get all those different entries to link together. That really is the only thing I care about. As this thread, and countless ones before it, clearly shows: we won't get there by ourselves. Ken really needs to step in and settle this somehow, although I don't envy that task. For the record: I have always supported, and still do, a single name field. That would clear up a part of these recurring debates, and it would eliminate thousands of pointless double entries for the same people in one fell swoop (almost EVERY three-piece-name in our database has separate, non-linking entries due to different methods of parsing). |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting madacid: Quote:
just changing/combining the 3 name-fields just to one will solve the problem, because I'm not forced to guess blind.
If the credits said:
Chan Yuen-Lung .. Black Bear student
you can enter "Black Bear student" to Person's Role-field (formely known as "credited as"-field)
you can enter "Chan Yuen-Lung" to Person's Credit-field (formely known as "role"-field)
(this method would achieve our maxime to collection the on-screen-credits at it's best)
in addition a new field "common name" could be a solution to combine the several different names to just one person.
to complete my example this could be:
common name = Jackie Chan
(and the method to selecting this common name could be the CLT) You agree with the "one field" idea, thus I guess you don't really care to know what is first name or last name, but then you absolutely insist that we should spend all our energies documenting the genealogy of Chinese families?  I fully understand your concerns, but it's DVD Profiler after all, not Family Profiler. Again, if we were really entering family names and just that, why on earth are we entering ", Jr." with the last name? Does ", Jr." belong with the family name?  | | | | -- Enry |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Enry:
Family Name is not Profikler terminology. Ideally we would have a Prefix AND a suffix field as well but...
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,722 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
Family Name is not Profikler terminology. We refer to it as "Last Name". As for your dedication to "Profiler terminology" - let me remind you of how much you like the Profiler term "media companies"...  They're quite similar, actually: "last name" and "media companies" - both little pieces of "Profiler terminology" that are not defined in the contribution rules, and where we're, as of yet, all entirely free to decide what goes into it.  | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting EnryWiki:
Quote:
I have to point out that there's absolutely no way you can expect the average user to be able to distinguish in this manner between the order of names that he sees on the screen.
And I fully agree! Personally, I know next to nothing about Chinese names - I'm happy to admit that. I've done my best to not even take a side in this argument, because I just don't know. I'm just very much against "word counting". The point I'm trying to make is that there ARE people who ARE able to distinguish which part of what they see on-screen is the person's "last name", and without further guidance from Invelos, they WILL automatically put it in the "last name" field. I'm not one of those people, but still.
My own concern is linking: I couldn't care less what "common name" we use for this actor. For all I care we use "actorID_858356876"... As long as we can get all those different entries to link together. That really is the only thing I care about. As this thread, and countless ones before it, clearly shows: we won't get there by ourselves. Ken really needs to step in and settle this somehow, although I don't envy that task.
For the record: I have always supported, and still do, a single name field. That would clear up a part of these recurring debates, and it would eliminate thousands of pointless double entries for the same people in one fell swoop (almost EVERY three-piece-name in our database has separate, non-linking entries due to different methods of parsing). There are people who know everything about Chinese names, and there are people who know everything about film companies and that Disney is a logo not the company name. Most people don't, though. Some others do know, but are not really interested in the distinction, because they care about the credits on screen and on the box more than about their ultimate meaning, so they will enter what they see anyway. "One field" could be a solution, but it would require man-hours of Ken's work and as a result we would lose the family name information bit for ALL actors, not just the Chinese one! What a deal!  I'd rather ask for a local "Chinese order" check box for those who are really interested in displaying the family name as last name. | | | | -- Enry | | | | Last edited: by White Pongo, Jr. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Which has not been defined, Tim.
Like I said you clearly have no concept of the precise nature of words especially as it relates to Programming. Had Family Name been intended, then Family Name would have been used.
Like I said Tim, you are one of those users intent on always applying his interpretation to everything whether it has any basis or not and you are unwilling to accept any kind of guidance.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,722 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
Had Family Name been intended, then Family Name would have been used. Again: had "First Word", "Middle Word(s)", "Last Word" been intended, that would have been used. It wasn't. Quote:
you are one of those users intent on always applying his interpretation to everything whether it has any basis or not and you are unwilling to accept any kind of guidance Is that the same unwillingness to accept guidance you regularly display (like here, for instance, or later in the "20th" vs. "Twentieth" debacle) when you keep voting according your own personal preferences in direct violation of Ken's explicit rulings? If there's one person here that has a lot of trouble accepting guidance, I'm sorry to have to say it's you... | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
Enry:
Family Name is not Profikler terminology. Ideally we would have a Prefix AND a suffix field as well but...
Skip Correct: Family Name is not Profiler terminology. But if some people think that the "last name" field should uniquely be used to record the family name, then they should also want the ", Jr." suffix not to be there, because ", Jr." has nothing to do with the family name, it's a suffix to the given name used to distinguish "John" from his son "John junior". | | | | -- Enry |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Ahhhh, I see the argument.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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