Last night I saw a very interesting interview on Danish TV with Joseph Stiglitz, nobel price winner in economics, advisor to the white house in the 90's and former chief financial something for the World Bank. Anyway, it touched on many of the subjects we have discussed here and to me it was very interesting. I will admit though, that his views are very Euro-minded. I hope you find it interesting as well. You can see it here (you need Windows Media Player):

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It runs for 27 minutes.

It is part of an interview series, leading up to the American presidential elections and this guy have been and will be talking to some interesting people. You can see his site here and although it's in Danish, you can see the names and the interviews are in english.

Now I hope they haven't blocked foreign IP's from streaming this.

Quoting whispering:

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Though i think theres few minutes missing from the end

You're right.  Hopefully they'll fix it.

Quoting lmoelleb:

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Personally I primarely see the state as the institution that guaranties my wellbeing. I expect it to provide education, I expect it to help me if I get sick, I expect it to provide me with safety (police, military, etc), and I expect it to help me if I can't make a living from working for any reason (for example when I get old). It is primarely my service organization. Sure it isn't perfect (far from it), but that is what it is here to do.

This is where I believe we have a huge philosophical difference.

In my estimation, the federal government has two functions and two functions only:

1. Provide for the National Defense
2. Mediate differences between the states

Everything else is up to the states, individuals, and private organizations like churches and other charitable organizations.  The government is responsible for providing the "environment" to enable "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness", however, is not responsible for actually providing those things.

Abdicating decisions on how one's money is spent to others (the government)  has been a recipe for disaster in this country.  The amount of waste that occurs when the governement is involved in any program is simply staggering.

If people got to keep the money they earned, they would not need the "nanny" state to take care of their health requirements or their retirement needs, provided that they were responsible in saving and investing for those things.  The problem is that many people are not repsonsible and, therefore, those that are responsible  become responsible for those that are not through government programs without having any say in the matter.  Politicians simply pass laws that reach into the pockets of those that have (and have worked hard for the most part) and re-distribute it to those who have not (and often have not worked hard for anything).

That is not to say that there isn't a segment of the population in any country that are incapable of supporting themselves and we as a society have a moral responsibility to provide for them.

Unfortunately, such programs are often abused by those that prefer to be on the dole than to actually have pride in themselves and earn their way.

The political system here simply exacerbates the problem.  The goverment has actually created a class of people that are now dependent on the government and actually know no other way of life.  There is no incentive for them to actually get off goverment programs.  They then turn around and vote for the very people who have made them dependent on the government, because those candidates promise to continue and expand the government hand-outs to them.

The only way to get true change will be a second revolution.  There simply is no political will to make substantive change.

Quoting hal9g:

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Quoting lmoelleb:

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Personally I primarely see the state as the institution that guaranties my wellbeing. I expect it to provide education, I expect it to help me if I get sick, I expect it to provide me with safety (police, military, etc), and I expect it to help me if I can't make a living from working for any reason (for example when I get old). It is primarely my service organization. Sure it isn't perfect (far from it), but that is what it is here to do.

This is where I believe we have a huge philosophical difference.

In my estimation, the federal government has two functions and two functions only:

1. Provide for the National Defense
2. Mediate differences between the states

Everything else is up to the states, individuals, and private organizations like churches and other charitable organizations.  The government is responsible for providing the "environment" to enable "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness", however, is not responsible for actually providing those things.

Abdicating decisions on how one's money is spent to others (the government)  has been a recipe for disaster in this country.  The amount of waste that occurs when the governement is involved in any program is simply staggering.

If people got to keep the money they earned, they would not need the "nanny" state to take care of their health requirements or their retirement needs, provided that they were responsible in saving and investing for those things.  The problem is that many people are not repsonsible and, therefore, those that are responsible  become responsible for those that are not through government programs without having any say in the matter.  Politicians simply pass laws that reach into the pockets of those that have (and have worked hard for the most part) and re-distribute it to those who have not (and often have not worked hard for anything).

That is not to say that there isn't a segment of the population in any country that are incapable of supporting themselves and we as a society have a moral responsibility to provide for them.

Unfortunately, such programs are often abused by those that prefer to be on the dole than to actually have pride in themselves and earn their way.

The political system here simply exacerbates the problem.  The goverment has actually created a class of people that are now dependent on the government and actually know no other way of life.  There is no incentive for them to actually get off goverment programs.  They then turn around and vote for the very people who have made them dependent on the government, because those candidates promise to continue and expand the government hand-outs to them.

The only way to get true change will be a second revolution.  There simply is no political will to make substantive change.

Ready when you are, Gridley! I got your back.

Skip 

Quoting skipnet50:

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It is not my responsibility as a member of society to take of you and yours, that is YOUR job, the concept of re-distribution of wealth which so much of the European Community relishes is simply abhorrent and to me and demonstrates a common failing of the human psyche, a desire to be as lazy and irresponsible as he possibly can get away with, and to remain in a "childklike: state and have others take care of them.

I am glad to live in a Union of states/countries where we can help other countries financially in the union. Thanks to richer countries poorer countries also get opportunities.

It's somewhat the same with NATO or the UN even. There we help countries that need help because they cannot do everything be themselves.

There is nothing wrong with helping people less fortunate. I agree that taxes shouldn't be sky rocketing but my income helps people who cannot work. There is ofcourse a difference between people who can't work and people who won't work.

Quoting skipnet50:

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...we have learned in this country is that Government can't handle ANYTHING effectively and efficiently. For eample, our own welfare system only 40% of the Actual budget gets to those that "need" the aid, the other 60% is eaten by the bureaucracy. Compared to a good charity, most of which pay a maximum of 20%; and many of them of them are even lower than that; to administrative expenses, meaning that at least 80% gets to those whom need it. So where do I want MY money to go an inefficient government run operation or a charity which serves the same function. Hmmm let me think about that a second...I think I can better determine the use for MY money than the US Government. The primary function of our Government is even spellled out Constitutionallyand that defense of the nation. NOT creating a massive system of economic slavery...yes I said SLAVERY where the population is totally dependent on the whims of a Government.

Well you're correct about that, but there is probably no government anywhere in the world that is efficient, except the one in (I thought it was) Dubai. The country that is run like the country is a company.
We pay loads of money on taxes, but it's the hospitals that don't spend/invest it efficient, they ask for more, they get more, and so on and so forth.
It's not perfect, and living in one of the richer countries in Europe anything we put into the EU we are not getting anything `back` for it, but we can help countries like France and Poland.

Quoting hal9g:

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Quoting lmoelleb:

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Personally I primarely see the state as the institution that guaranties my wellbeing. I expect it to provide education, I expect it to help me if I get sick, I expect it to provide me with safety (police, military, etc), and I expect it to help me if I can't make a living from working for any reason (for example when I get old). It is primarely my service organization. Sure it isn't perfect (far from it), but that is what it is here to do.

This is where I believe we have a huge philosophical difference.

In my estimation, the federal government has two functions and two functions only:

1. Provide for the National Defense
2. Mediate differences between the states

Actually I think the only difference is that you forgot I mentioned the different sizes our contries have. The state I talk about is not comparable to your federal state - it is compared to your actual state governments. The closest we have to a federal state is the EU, but we do not (yet) pay taxes directly to the EU.

So when you say

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Everything else is up to the states, individuals, and private organizations like churches and other charitable organizations.

The very first thing you mention is the state comparable to the state I mention. So no, I do not think there is any "huge philosophical difference". In the grand scheme of things, it's really details. If you plot for example Denmark, United States, and North Korean on a chart meassuring various "philosophical difference" I don't think you would notice Denmark and the US are more similar than different.

Now I think about it, it might be another reason for the huge difference in preferrence when it comes to private or government controlled forreign help. Basically our forreign help is placed at something that correspond to your state level. But you can't place it at that level simply because in international relations, other countries deals with the United States, not with for example Michigan. Michigan and Sudan do not have any diplomatic relationships - those are at the level of the US and Sudan. A country like Denmark DO have diplomatic relationships with Sudan, which even though Denmark is only half the population of Michigan provides advantages a US state could never have.

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The government is responsible for providing the "environment" to enable "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness", however, is not responsible for actually providing those things.

Abdicating decisions on how one's money is spent to others (the government)  has been a recipe for disaster in this country.  The amount of waste that occurs when the governement is involved in any program is simply staggering.

If people got to keep the money they earned, they would not need the "nanny" state to take care of their health requirements or their retirement needs, provided that they were responsible in saving and investing for those things.  The problem is that many people are not repsonsible and, therefore, those that are responsible  become responsible for those that are not through government programs without having any say in the matter.  Politicians simply pass laws that reach into the pockets of those that have (and have worked hard for the most part) and re-distribute it to those who have not (and often have not worked hard for anything).

That is not to say that there isn't a segment of the population in any country that are incapable of supporting themselves and we as a society have a moral responsibility to provide for them.

Unfortunately, such programs are often abused by those that prefer to be on the dole than to actually have pride in themselves and earn their way.

This is obviously a universal problem. People are selfish - if they wherent, communism would have been the best system.

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The political system here simply exacerbates the problem.  The goverment has actually created a class of people that are now dependent on the government and actually know no other way of life.  There is no incentive for them to actually get off goverment programs.  They then turn around and vote for the very people who have made them dependent on the government, because those candidates promise to continue and expand the government hand-outs to them.

The only way to get true change will be a second revolution.  There simply is no political will to make substantive change.

It is very very easy to say "those who abuse the system should have nothing, those who really need help should receive it". It's a lot harder to actually make the rules that ensure it without going too far to one side. Have you considered that the European and American systems are basically identically, they are just trying two different locations to find the balance?

Quoting Astrakan:

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Cool. Thanks for the answer.

Oh, and the answer probably lies above, but is there a link with a simple list of countries based on the Center for Global Development's numbers? I clicked on maybe 1/4th of the links provided by people and mostly saw lengthy reports I don't have the time or inclination to read through.

KM

The chart can be found here, just scroll down to the second chart.