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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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David Ogden Stiers |
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| Registered: July 31, 2008 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 2,506 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
who probably do not interest american users but are nevertheless in the database...
I can't say that any of the names mean anything to me but I do have plenty of "foreign" titles in my collection so I'd be surprised if I didn't have other similar instances somewhere. Quote:
that would kill correct sorting... and be unacceptable for many users... Fully agreed. | | | | Last edited: by Ardos |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
I'll repeat what I said earlier: if nothing's going to change, can we at least get some kind of pinned thread where we collect known and documented (personally, I don't believe documentation on this exists at all, but hey, that's just me) double "last names"? I'd do it myself, but I'm afraid I'm really not the right person to do so...  But would really like to have something to refer no-voters - either way, that is - to. Why so you won't cross reference to it?  You want all these tools but then refuse to make use of them.<shrugs> Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Quoting pauls42:
Quote:
It would be consistent. so if you look for the name in a sorted list then it would always appear under C. And any name could be searched for using last name.
...and Kristin SCOTT THOMAS sorted among T, and CHOW Yun Fat among F ??? 
and I do not speak of Jean-Claude BOLLE REDAT, Maxime CHAPUT DAVID, Raouf BEN YAGHLANE, Olga GEORGE PICOT, Jacques DONIOL VALCROZE, Marthe MOUDIKI MOREAU, Nadine BEAUSSON DIAGNE, Philippine LEROY BEAULIEU, or Pierre François MARTIN LAVAL (this one with four words and no middle name...), who probably do not interest american users but are nevertheless in the database...
that would kill correct sorting... and be unacceptable for many users... As long as the data was handled consisrtently, the only people that should be upset is those tying to FamilyHistoryProfiler. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | edit | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 171 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting pauls42: Quote:
Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
Quoting pauls42:
Quote:
why would you lose the last name sorting? There are still three fields - there is still sorting being done on the last field. ??
Because what you suggest makes the last name meaningless.
'Steirs' is David Ogden Stiers' last name, so no problem there.
'Carter', however, is not Helena Bonham Carter's last name, so big problem there. While she should sort with the 'Bs', your suggested rule would put her in the 'Cs'.
So, yes, you can sort on that field, but it won't sort properly. If you can't sort it properly, why have the field?
It would be consistent. so if you look for the name in a sorted list then it would always appear under C. And any name could be searched for using last name.
For the vast magority this would be correct. And Bonham Carter is her surname, her last name is Carter. I have to disagree here. In the example of Helena Bonham Carter, her last name is not Carter. The last word in her name is Carter. The term Last Name carries additional meaning beyond position, some of it cultural. To most people, Last Name and Surname are synonymous. It would be foolish for DVD Profiler to force it's users to adopt a different definition of a common term. Especially when most of the users don't participate in this forum and wouldn't learn of that different definition. With name parsing, we have a situation where the rules can never be simplified enough that there won't be arguments. So, we need to have a solution where discrepancies can be quickly (and concisely) addressed. A pinned thread where names that don't follow the simple 1/2/3 parsing can be listed once they have been documented would be a huge help. This would simplify subsequent contributions by not requiring significant research. I think we need to face it, there will always be exceptions where name parsing isn't simple. We just need to find a way to minimize the pain. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting jgilligan: Quote:
Quoting pauls42:
Quote:
Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
Quoting pauls42:
Quote:
why would you lose the last name sorting? There are still three fields - there is still sorting being done on the last field. ??
Because what you suggest makes the last name meaningless.
'Steirs' is David Ogden Stiers' last name, so no problem there.
'Carter', however, is not Helena Bonham Carter's last name, so big problem there. While she should sort with the 'Bs', your suggested rule would put her in the 'Cs'.
So, yes, you can sort on that field, but it won't sort properly. If you can't sort it properly, why have the field?
It would be consistent. so if you look for the name in a sorted list then it would always appear under C. And any name could be searched for using last name.
For the vast magority this would be correct. And Bonham Carter is her surname, her last name is Carter.
I have to disagree here. In the example of Helena Bonham Carter, her last name is not Carter. The last word in her name is Carter. The term Last Name carries additional meaning beyond position, some of it cultural. To most people, Last Name and Surname are synonymous. It would be foolish for DVD Profiler to force it's users to adopt a different definition of a common term. Especially when most of the users don't participate in this forum and wouldn't learn of that different definition.
With name parsing, we have a situation where the rules can never be simplified enough that there won't be arguments. So, we need to have a solution where discrepancies can be quickly (and concisely) addressed. A pinned thread where names that don't follow the simple 1/2/3 parsing can be listed once they have been documented would be a huge help. This would simplify subsequent contributions by not requiring significant research.
I think we need to face it, there will always be exceptions where name parsing isn't simple. We just need to find a way to minimize the pain. I agree, we have many different user agendas involved. BUT the answer to that, Jgilligan is the same as so many other such issues... the key is in the documentation OR LACK THEREOF. As I have said for many years now, the 1/2/3 is merely a starting point we can all operate from, and any departure from the starting point should be documented, that is the way I would day were I Contributing. It is very important that I provide you and other members of the Team the basis for any such departure and back it up with results, so that you can check it if you wish. As long as there is doumentation it should be OK, refusing to provide documentation as some do, is simply unacceptable and should NEVER be approved. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,722 |
| | Posted: | | | | Except that as it stands, the rules don't prescribe such a starting point, and everyone just does as he pleases, including you and me. Also I can't help but pointing out yet again that the whole documentation thing sounds absolutely lovely, until you realise that it just doesn't exist in 99.9% of the cases. And even if it does, we're still faced with the many cultural backgrounds of all the users involved: a bit of documentation that would convince me to enter something as a double last name might do absolutely nothing for you. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting jgilligan: Quote:
I have to disagree here. In the example of Helena Bonham Carter, her last name is not Carter. The last word in her name is Carter. The term Last Name carries additional meaning beyond position, some of it cultural. To most people, Last Name and Surname are synonymous. It would be foolish for DVD Profiler to force it's users to adopt a different definition of a common term. Especially when most of the users don't participate in this forum and wouldn't learn of that different definition. Thanks for saving me the effort. Well said.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Except that as it stands, the rules don't prescribe such a starting point, and everyone just does as he pleases, including you and me. Also I can't help but pointing out yet again that the whole documentation thing sounds absolutely lovely, until you realise that it just doesn't exist in 99.9% of the cases. And even if it does, we're still faced with the many cultural backgrounds of all the users involved: a bit of documentation that would convince me to enter something as a double last name might do absolutely nothing for you. Here;'s the problem, tim. You and others want to use YOUR cultural norms and expect me and others to recognize that, while at the same time not being willing to recognize that no such norm exists here, you simply want to force your norm on the rest of us. Were Helena an American, there is every possibility that Bonham/Carter could be CORRECT, she is not and we have done enough with her to verify //BC, but for you or anyone else to simply want to force your culture on everyone else is wrong. Remember, like it or not this is an AMERICAN program. I am willing to deal with European norms as necessary and where they can substantiated not just ASSUMED. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: July 31, 2008 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,506 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
Quoting T!M:
Quote:
Except that as it stands, the rules don't prescribe such a starting point, and everyone just does as he pleases, including you and me. Also I can't help but pointing out yet again that the whole documentation thing sounds absolutely lovely, until you realise that it just doesn't exist in 99.9% of the cases. And even if it does, we're still faced with the many cultural backgrounds of all the users involved: a bit of documentation that would convince me to enter something as a double last name might do absolutely nothing for you.
Here;'s the problem, tim. You and others want to use YOUR cultural norms and expect me and others to recognize that, while at the same time not being willing to recognize that no such norm exists here, you simply want to force your norm on the rest of us. Were Helena an American, there is every possibility that Bonham/Carter could be CORRECT, she is not and we have done enough with her to verify //BC, but for you or anyone else to simply want to force your culture on everyone else is wrong. Remember, like it or not this is an AMERICAN program. I am willing to deal with European norms as necessary and where they can substantiated not just ASSUMED.
Skip Skip, you're doing EXACTLY the same thing that you're accusing T!M of doing "you simply want to force your norm on the rest of us". As I've said before that although it may be an American developed program, Ken is quite fair in allowing different nationalities to keep their standards, i.e. allowing them to keep the capitalisation rules for the Rating Description field. You say, bolding by me "I am willing to deal with European norms as necessary and where they can substantiated not just ASSUMED" and yet that's what you want to do with every American. You want to assume that they follow the "norm". Although I've no doubt that most will follow it, it wont be 100% of them. You're fond of saying that we shouldn't assume anything and only go by the evidence in front of us but if we go down the 1/2/3 that you and others are suggesting then we'll be doing just that, assuming it's 1/2/3 unless documented otherwise. That is why I've suggested a few times that if you have a 3 (or more) part name you should back it up regardless of where they come from. That then treats everyone fairly & not force some users to do more than others. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | No, Forget I am not, I provide documentation if I believe anything other 1/2/3 is correct, I don't guess and i don't make assumptions . 1/2/3 gives us all the correct data and a place to start from, 1///23 might be appropriate for a program that is based in say the UK, and i would not be sitting haggling about the starting point. I RECOGNIZE the importance in having a single place from which to begin. But this is not a UK based program, therefore while 1//23 might be appropriate in some cases it is NOT the norm...because there is NO norm. As I have said before a person's name is one of the most personal aspects of a given person, save for a woman's BY and weight (don't even go there)  And despite the claims from the other side pf the pond, I don't believe that you have any sort of norm either, I am unaware of no comittee which Rules how YOU must handle your name...it is a purely personal choice and any given person is probably, as here, FREE to follow "custom" or not at his/her particular choice. If there is such a name handling enforcing unit somewhere i WANT TO HEAR ABOUT IT. What are the penalties for dismissing any pronouncements by this committee. BTW Forget, let me stress this AGAIN. My position is only about a STARTING POINT, nothing more and any cultural issue stems strictly from the POV that this is an AMERICAN based program...NOTHING MORE. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
Remember, like it or not this is an AMERICAN program. I am willing to deal with European norms as necessary and where they can substantiated not just ASSUMED.
Skip American program or not, the program disagrees with your ASSUMED parsing. Type any 3 word name into Profiler and click "Add Cast Member" and see what happens. I propose that the easiest way to solve the parsing problem is to simply let the program do it all, unless it can be DOCUMENTED otherwise. That way there can be no claims of any cultural bias - we type the name in, click "Add" - that's it - what could be easier to follow? |
| | Registered: June 12, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,665 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote:
American program or not, the program disagrees with your ASSUMED parsing.
Type any 3 word name into Profiler and click "Add Cast Member" and see what happens.
I propose that the easiest way to solve the parsing problem is to simply let the program do it all, unless it can be DOCUMENTED otherwise.
That way there can be no claims of any cultural bias - we type the name in, click "Add" - that's it - what could be easier to follow? So Michael/J./Fox would now be Michael//J. Fox? And Dr. Martin/Luther/King would be Dr./Martin Luther King? I don't think i want to document all those.  | | | | Bad movie? You're soaking in it! |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | I agree with tweeter. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote:
Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
Remember, like it or not this is an AMERICAN program. I am willing to deal with European norms as necessary and where they can substantiated not just ASSUMED.
Skip
American program or not, the program disagrees with your ASSUMED parsing.
Type any 3 word name into Profiler and click "Add Cast Member" and see what happens.
I propose that the easiest way to solve the parsing problem is to simply let the program do it all, unless it can be DOCUMENTED otherwise.
That way there can be no claims of any cultural bias - we type the name in, click "Add" - that's it - what could be easier to follow? Sounds like a nightmare to me. And definitely runs closer to letting users run completely wild and unchecked, which would R1 untrusted by other Regions and vice versa, we already have somne of this problem, relative to other Regions and while I won't point fingers at any one Region in particular, based the CLT results the problem lies OUTSIDE of Region 1, with some users blatantly ignoring the Rules and getting data approved which is questionable at best. Your idea would be fine, north, IF the Regions were totally isolated from each other, which they aren't. THEN ecah Region could do whatever worked for their user base. But were that the case, I as Region 1 user would probably telling some other Regions to stay out of our data, you are Region whatever, muck up your own stay out of this one. We are a Team, perhaps that is a foreigh concept elsewhere in the world, there is NO I in Team. Ifeel like we are playing tug of war with Region 1 US users pulling against those who don't want to do it THAT way, they want to do it THIS way. As long as this continues there will NEVER be any consensus and this debate will go on ad infinitum. Let's all get on the same page. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | So what you're saying is that you expect people who have made no alterations to the data as entered to document this data, but that when you have made alterations to the data, you need to provide none.  |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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