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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Standardization of Non-American Names |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 810 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
I am not taking issue with you or Patsa, Paul. But with the thread head and the OP. I tend to favor the single field concept for reasons of my own. But this ongoing concept of STANDARDIZING this, that and something else...NO; that path leads to a mess.
Skip But the OP is stating that He does not want standardization by way of Ken's new filters. pdf | | | Paul Francis
San Juan Capistrano, CA, USA |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Define country of origin, surfeur. Is that country of birth or perhaps since there are many such people involved in film, might it be the country that they have chosen as there home and perhaps even become naturalized citizens. Jackie Chan as an example I believe is a naturalized American citizen and maintains homes in Hollywood and Hong Kong, whose Rules would he follow if there was some sort of question. PUHLEASE. We have a system, it will work if everyone will stop bickering about this, that and that over there in the corner, and if they will enter the data as the Rules dictate and were intended to function. As I have said many times, I don't even view this as any kind of truly valid question, we are dealing with film credits and building a DVD database, FamilyTreeProfiler is another issue entirely and has nothing to do with this program. This is just an insane discussion that people continue to drag around and try and come at from various angles with one simple objective as far as I can see...subversion of the Rules. I have tried to look at this differently but there is just no other way to see it, I have tried, I wish there was. I suggest that those interested go try and use FamilyTreeMaker, it is an excellent program for genealogical research, I have used it for many years myself, and that is hwere all this nonsense truly belongs Skip  | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting pdf256: Quote:
Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
I am not taking issue with you or Patsa, Paul. But with the thread head and the OP. I tend to favor the single field concept for reasons of my own. But this ongoing concept of STANDARDIZING this, that and something else...NO; that path leads to a mess.
Skip
But the OP is stating that He does not want standardization by way of Ken's new filters.
pdf No, of course he doesn't Paul. i would expect nothing less. He wants Ken to do things HIS way, instead of Ken writing the program and we do things the way Ken wants. I am on the record with not being overly pleased with the way Ken set up the system, I still believe there is a better way, BUT Ken has designed the system, and i think we have gone too far to turn back now. What i see, is instead of users accepting the program and allowing it to move forward, they want to pardon my French, piss and moan at whatever burr is under their saddle at the moment, and push to try and get it the way they wish it to be instead of accepting it and go forward and let's see what comes next. All I can do is offer the best guidance that I can based on what was in the works at that time, I am not going to attempt to make any guesses about some of the new Crew issues, even though I think SOMETIMES I can guess pretty well. This whole name issue is simply massive sound and fury signifying...NOTHING. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 3,830 |
| | Posted: | | | | . | | | | Sources for one or more of the changes and/or additions were not submitted. Please include the sources for your changes in the contribution notes, especially for cast and crew additions. | | | | Last edited: by ? |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 485 |
| | Posted: | | | | As a fellow countryman of Martin (original post) I do like to express I disagree strongly. As others already stated, linking is very important to many and if it is about representation on screen, the credited as feature suffices. The original argument is that in the Netherlands, there is no concept of middle name. Just your family name (like: Verstappen, Verhoeven, Hauer, or with more than one word: De Bont, Van Houten; some members of aristocracy may have well op to 4 or 5 words there excluding the title...). Your given names may be one or more (4 being quite normal in the catholic south of the country). I have no problem with the parsing into USA-style first and middle names for the given names. Middle also covering any initials beyond the first 2. Fine. What Martin was also referring to was the habit, more or less developed by some parents about the last half century or so, to give their child a double first name. Like Peter Paul, or Mary Anne, or... Sometimes written with a hyphen, sometimes not. You call a person by the combined first name. This occurs in the USA too -- I think (again, opinion) Dutch parents took a cue from that. The assembled actors and crew list has lots of examples how to deal with it. For the moment I like Ken's last change.  | | | Eric
If it is important, say it. Otherwise, let silence speak. | | | | Last edited: by eommen |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | eommen:
Fine I am well aware of this, it has been done here in America a lot longer than 50 years, but so what, but it changes nothing. You have to document that Perter Paul is a name as opposed to Peter/Paul, your opinion or mine is not important without documentation, again this is about credits not about not about names per se THAT would be a completely different program.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
A single field name doesn't allow correct sorting. So it needs a sort field, and parsing problem comes back. People who ask for a single name field have not yet proposed a way to solve sorting... We have, plenty of times. As you say a "sort name" field would solve the issue - and, just like the "sort title" field it could be kept local so people could parse any way they like. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 810 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote:
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
A single field name doesn't allow correct sorting. So it needs a sort field, and parsing problem comes back. People who ask for a single name field have not yet proposed a way to solve sorting...
We have, plenty of times. As you say a "sort name" field would solve the issue - and, just like the "sort title" field it could be kept local so people could parse any way they like. The 'sort name' should be part of the actor data just like the head-shot and birth year so that we only would need to enter once for each actor or crew member. The first time an actor is added a default sort name could be added based on last 'name-word' followed by the rest of the name. pdf | | | Paul Francis
San Juan Capistrano, CA, USA |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting pdf256: Quote:
The 'sort name' should be part of the actor data just like the head-shot and birth year so that we only would need to enter once for each actor or crew member. The first time an actor is added a default sort name could be added based on last 'name-word' followed by the rest of the name.
pdf That's exactly how I saw it working too. Whether it's made contributable or not is up to Ken, but I see no major reason why it can't be kept local. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | North:
I would suggest keeping such a field local. For one very big reason, Locally you can do what you want with it to make any given user happy, once you make Contributable then you had ebtter be able to document your claim on sort name, I am, for one, am noty interested in what you (generic) THINK a sort name should be, I want it backed up and documented. But sort name would seem more of LOCAL issue anyway, just like sort title.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: August 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,807 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Daddy DVD: Quote:
Today I noticed that names with two initials are automatically divided/filtered between the first and middle name field during the contribution process if they are both entered in the first name field of the local profile. While this may be the proper way to handle American Names, this isn't the way names are handled in other languages and I would like to express my displeasement about this behaviour. If this standardization continues (like with Dutch "jr." suffixes) I will refrain from contributing profiles with Dutch Names in the future, because I do not want to cooperate on filling the online with incorrect data. I think the problem is the label on the field: there ain't no such thing as a "Middle name" in many countries of the world, while many do use double barreled first names. Let's just call them name Part 1 and Part 2 and let's call the whole thing off  Anyway, like others said, linking trumps cultures! | | | | -- Enry |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 8,722 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting White Pongo, Jr.: Quote:
I think the problem is the label on the field It is indeed. No matter what anyone says, as long as the fields are called "first name", "middle name" and "last name", there are bound to be users who'll use them to enter what they feel are the person's first name(s), middle name(s) and last name(s), while other users, in different parts of the world and with different backgrounds, might parse it differently. The next problem is that the rules don't declare any of those interpretations "better" or "preferable" in any way - the field labels are literally the only hint that we've got. And as of yet, they don't say "first word", "middle word(s)", "last word"... For instance: only last week I saw someone updating a profile where the notes said "moving maiden name to the proper field" (which was the "last name" field), and it was summarily approved by both the voters and the screeners. Yet I'm fairly sure that there users doing the exact opposite thing as well... As long as the field names are what they are, and there's no further guidance, we're going to be stuck with pointless multiple, non-linking entries in the database for just about EVERY three-(or more)-piece name out there. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 485 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting White Pongo, Jr.:
Quote:
I think the problem is the label on the field
It is indeed. No matter what anyone says, as long as the fields are called "first name", "middle name" and "last name", there are bound to be users who'll use them to enter what they feel are the person's first name(s), middle name(s) and last name(s), while other users, in different parts of the world and with different backgrounds, might parse it differently. The next problem is that the rules don't declare any of those interpretations "better" or "preferable" in any way - the field labels are literally the only hint that we've got. And as of yet, they don't say "first word", "middle word(s)", "last word"...
Seconded. Actually, this particular remark reminds me of the various threads on Asian names (here and on intervocative.com) where there was a school of thought to parse names as meaningless words, and a school of thought that said last name = surname = family name and parsing then the middle name was, in the case of especially Chinese and Korean, another problem. Both sides continued the war on tens of pages of messages, and neither side wanted to change thought... FWIW, I agree with your statement that the fields refer to names not to words. So much for taking all into context. I still think the current rules of parsing when a contribution is made, are good enough! | | | Eric
If it is important, say it. Otherwise, let silence speak. |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 2,366 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting White Pongo, Jr.:
Quote:
I think the problem is the label on the field
It is indeed. No, the problem are the new filters which enforce parsing and suffix formats that aren't used in many countries across the world excluding the US and others. As it's a user database, the users should decide how names are written because they will know best. | | | Martin Zuidervliet
DVD Profiler Nederlands |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 485 |
| | Posted: | | | | No offence Martin, but you seem to be pretty much on your own here (even with the Dutch users only). Which means your view would probably be outvoted if the users would really decide.The largest user base seem to be USA and the majority of movies (meaning cast and crew) are USA thanks to the Hollywood industry. They follow the first/middle/last name "rules".
I recognise your opinion - but disagree. This is commercial software package (in the shareware variety). Meaning that you'll not always have it your way. Threating to pull out of contributing while you've made so many valuable contributions to date is a an overreaction. | | | Eric
If it is important, say it. Otherwise, let silence speak. |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 2,366 |
| | Posted: | | | | How can I be on my own if everybody in the Netherlands uses the same standard. We don't have a middle name and suffixes are written without a comma and in low caps. It's not something I invented. You may like to have a general standard, hell even I do, but one could always use other techniques to enforce good name entering either by rules or by selective use of the filter (only for some countries of origin). To force everybody to use only the American standard for all names is not very decent.
BTW, if you think the statement I made was a threat to stop contributing completely, you misunderstood me. I just do not want to contribute things I consider wrong. The small percentage of Dutch names I hate to be changed will not be noticeble. | | | Martin Zuidervliet
DVD Profiler Nederlands |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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