Welcome to the Invelos forums. Please read the forum rules before posting.

Read access to our public forums is open to everyone. To post messages, a free registration is required.

If you have an Invelos account, sign in to post.

    Invelos Forums->General: General Discussion Page: 1 2 3 4  Previous   Next
Naming conventions around the world
Author Message
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsynnerman
Take me with you. Please.
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 736
Posted:
PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
Hong Kong naming conventions are pretty much the same as Korean naming conventions, with the addition of the western name.  Hong Kong, being a former British colony, required English translations to their films.  Many of the actors, actresses and crew adopted an English name to go along with their Chinese one.  This, of course, lead to multiple credits for the same actor.

There are two famous actors named Tony Leung.  Sometimes they are credited that way, but more often they go by their English name and Chinese name combined: Tony Leung Chiu-Wai and Tony Leung Ka-Fai (sometimes with the dash in their Chinese given name, sometimes without).

Some only go by the Western name (at least, they do when credited using Western characters).  Jackie Chan and Jet Li are two famous examples (though they are also credited in Chinese characters under their proper Chinese name).  Actor Andy Lau is rarely credited as Andy Lau Tak-Wah (and I don't think I've ever seen him credited as Lau Tak-Wah).  Director Andrew Lau is rarely credited as Andrew Lau Wai-Keung or Lau Wai-Keung.  Actor Ngai Sing moved to the US and changed his name to Collin Chou (his real Taiwanese name was Chou Siu-Lun), which he now uses exclusively.  Sometimes the name isn't even consistent, as Johnnie To was sometimes credited as Johnny To in his earlier films.

Some actors used an English name for a brief time.  Lau Ching-Wan tried the name Sean Lau, then dropped it.  Even Chow Yun-Fat went by an English name for a brief time: Aman Chow.

There are also the naming conventions of Mandarin names versus Cantonese names.  Take Lau Kar-Leung.  When he was an action choreographer and director at Shaw Brothers, they used the Mandarin version of his name: Liu Chia-Liang.  In the later years, he went by his Cantonese name: Lau Kar-Leung.  His "brother" Gordon Liu, can be found under his western name Gordon Liu, his Mandarin name Liu Chia-Hui, his Cantonese name Lau Kar-Fei, or a combination of his western name and Chinese names.

Like Korean and Japanese names, you have a translation problem, which means that the name might not always be consistent.  Take Gordon Liu: glancing at HKMDB, they list additional aliases as Lau Ga-Fai,  Lau Kir-Fai,  Lau Kar-Fai,  Liu Jia-Hui,  Lau Ka-Fei and  Liu Chia-Fai.  This is not uncommon in films in the '70s and '80s.

As you can see, Hong Kong naming conventions are not simple (though it isn't difficult to standardize).
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantxradman
Registered: June 17, 2002
Registered: March 14, 2007
United States Posts: 1,328
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting sugarjoe:
Quote:

I am afraid I have to disagree, there is nothing like a middle name in Germany, only the possibility to have more than one first name.

sugarjoe,

Could you explain how you are familiar with German naming convention?  We have 3 members from Germany who seem to more or less agree with SpaceFreakMicha regarding middle names in Germany.
My Home Theater
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsugarjoe
Registered: March 15, 2007
Germany Posts: 374
Posted:
PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting xradman:
Quote:
Quoting sugarjoe:
Quote:

I am afraid I have to disagree, there is nothing like a middle name in Germany, only the possibility to have more than one first name.

sugarjoe,

Could you explain how you are familiar with German naming convention?  We have 3 members from Germany who seem to more or less agree with SpaceFreakMicha regarding middle names in Germany.


I am German and live in the UK, I hope that qualifies... 

Please look up a German id card or any other German official form, nowhere would you find the field 'middlename' but only 'given names'. This goes along with the Dutch modell as described by Eric.
 Last edited: by sugarjoe
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantxradman
Registered: June 17, 2002
Registered: March 14, 2007
United States Posts: 1,328
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting sugarjoe:
Quote:

I am German and live in the UK, I hope that qualifies... 

Please look up a German id card or any other German official form, nowhere would you find the field 'middlename' but only 'given names'. This goes along with the Dutch modell as described by Eric.

Eric,

Thanks for the explanation.  Any corroboration or rebuttals from our German members?
My Home Theater
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributoreommen
DVD nerd
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
Netherlands Posts: 485
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting xradman:
Quote:
Quoting sugarjoe:
Quote:

I am German and live in the UK, I hope that qualifies... 

Please look up a German id card or any other German official form, nowhere would you find the field 'middlename' but only 'given names'. This goes along with the Dutch model as described by Eric.

Eric,

Thanks for the explanation.  Any corroboration or rebuttals from our German members?


I am Eric and I am from the Netherlands...    Of course you meant Sugarjoe...

It all depends a bit the way you translate. If you equate the given names with first names, then there are no middle names. But note the plural, it is not the same as a single (or for that matter double) word first name USA-style.
If you translate American style the first given name to first name, the rest would become middle names.

Translating "voornaam" (NL), "Vorname" (D) litterally means names in front (of the surname). Translating it as "first" is just a close approximation to make sure the listener/reader basically understands. But translating it to "given names" only is far more correct.

That all said, I can safely say (I guess), that for NorthWest Europe (Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, I am not sure about the Nordic countries) the first of the given names does not have a special/formalised position. It may be your calling name, but that may be something else too.
Eric

If it is important, say it. Otherwise, let silence speak.
 Last edited: by eommen
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorSpaceFreakMicha
Jesus-Freak
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
Germany Posts: 1,774
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Right, in germany there is no word like "middle name".

US: first name / middle name / last name

Germany: first name / second name / last name
 Last edited: by SpaceFreakMicha
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributornorthbloke
Registered: March 15, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
United Kingdom Posts: 5,459
Posted:
PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
This is a fascinating post, green arrow to you Xradman for a great idea! 

As for the UK, naming conventions seem follow a family, rather than any "national" convention.
But the basic structure is the same.

We have a first name (or names), an optional middle name (or names), and the last name (or names!) which is your family or surname.
The one thing about UK names is that we do like doubling things up - which is why I wrote "names" so many times above.
Double-barrelled first names although not common are possible, I've never heard of a double-barrelled middle name but certainly a person can be given multiple middle names.
The creation of double-barrelled surnames is not that common these days, usually only existing because they've been used by that family for years. But they were commonly created when two well-off families would inter-marry and neither wanted to lose status, so both surnames were used.
Traditonally when a woman marries she loses her maiden name and takes her husband's name. There are some situations when she would continue to use her maiden name in common use, but legally her name would be his. I've never heard of a woman moving her maiden name to become a middle name in the UK.
Mother's maiden names will sometimes be passed down to children as middle names but at that point it ceases to be a family name.
As for that "family" comment at the top, this is where it gets complicated. Families in the UK can have their own traditional naming convention. For example in my family the men are given a first and a middle name, but in general use their middle name not their first name, whereas the women will use their first name and usually won't be given a middle name at all.

I think I've just confused myself now! 
 Last edited: by northbloke
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsugarjoe
Registered: March 15, 2007
Germany Posts: 374
Posted:
PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting SpaceFreakMicha:
Quote:
Right, in germany there is no word like "middle name".

US: first name / middle name / last name

Germany: first name / second name / last name


Well, if first name was the equivalent to 'Vorname(n) then it would be:

Germany: first name second name third name....//last name
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorTomGaines
Registered Sept. 24, 2001
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
Germany Posts: 2,005
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userVisit this user's homepageView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting SpaceFreakMicha:
Quote:
Right, in germany there is no word like "middle name".

US: first name / middle name / last name

Germany: first name / second name / last name


To elaborate on that:
In German, it is not called "first name", but "Vorname", which translates to "forename" or "given name".
The US middle name is called "zweiter Vorname" ("second forename").
If you look here, you can see, that "middle name" translates to "zweiter Vorname".


DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsugarjoe
Registered: March 15, 2007
Germany Posts: 374
Posted:
PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting TomGaines:
Quote:

The US middle name is called "zweiter Vorname" ("second forename").
If you look here, you can see, that "middle name" translates to "zweiter Vorname".


Disagree. If you are named Gerd Hans Heinz Meier what would that make Heinz?
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorDJ Doena
Registered: May 1, 2002
Registered: March 14, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
Germany Posts: 6,741
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userVisit this user's homepageView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Please note that our official documents don't even have space for a seperate middle name (I don't have one anyway), also note that the official english terms on this german document are "surname" and "given names".

(first: ID card, second: driver's license) - I edited the picture to make it useless for anything but looking at it:

Karsten
DVD Collectors Online

DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorTomGaines
Registered Sept. 24, 2001
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
Germany Posts: 2,005
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userVisit this user's homepageView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting sugarjoe:
Quote:
Quoting TomGaines:
Quote:

The US middle name is called "zweiter Vorname" ("second forename").
If you look here, you can see, that "middle name" translates to "zweiter Vorname".


Disagree. If you are named Gerd Hans Heinz Meier what would that make Heinz?


Third forename
Would also fall in middle name field (for Profiler purposes).


 Last edited: by TomGaines
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsugarjoe
Registered: March 15, 2007
Germany Posts: 374
Posted:
PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting TomGaines:
Quote:
Quoting sugarjoe:
Quote:
Quoting TomGaines:
Quote:

The US middle name is called "zweiter Vorname" ("second forename").
If you look here, you can see, that "middle name" translates to "zweiter Vorname".


Disagree. If you are named Gerd Hans Heinz Meier what would that make Heinz?


Third forename
Would also fall in middle name field (for Profiler purposes).


Sorry, but before this is officially clarified for me (and therefor for profiler purposes) it would be

Gerd Hans Heinz//Meier
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorTomGaines
Registered Sept. 24, 2001
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: High Rating
Germany Posts: 2,005
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userVisit this user's homepageView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
For Profiler purposes I would implement more strict parsing rules independent of naming conventions.
Everything before the first blank into the first name field (exception: titles like Sir, Captain,... would also fall into the first name field + the next following word).
The last word into last name field (exceptions: Variants on "von...", "de..." and Jr. and similar suffixe).
The rest into the middle name field.

I use a rule-based parser for converting CCViewer credit data (single field) into Profiler XML data (three fields), and am quite happy with it.

So this would make "Helena Bonham Carter" "Helena/Bonham/Carter" without having to argue for pages, if Bonham now belongs to middle or last name.
This would minimize interpretating of the names.

But I digress. This thread is supposed to be about naming conventions and not about Profiler parsing.


DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantDr. Killpatient
Here's my card
Registered: May 19, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 5,917
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting DJ Doena:
Quote:
Please note that our official documents don't even have space for a seperate middle name (I don't have one anyway), also note that the official english terms on this german document are "surname" and "given names".

Your ID card does seem to have a space for something as noted by the blank entry in the name (red here)
IDD<<SCHRAMM<<KARSTEN<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

There's also room on both cards for multiple given names though.
 Last edited: by Dr. Killpatient
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,201
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting xradman:
Quote:
Most often she may change her middle name to her maiden surname (ie. Hillary/ Diane/ Rodham to Hillary/ Rodham/ Clinton).

I don't know where you got all this invormation, but I have to disagree with this.  I know a lot of women and not a single one has replaced her middle name with her maiden name.  Does this happen?  Yes.  Does it happen more often than not?  Not in my experience.

Quote:
Very rarely, she may conjoin her husband's name to her name to form a hyphenated or double surname (less than 1%).

I have to disagree with this as well.  In fact, I have seen this more often than I have seen the the one above. 
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
 Last edited: by TheMadMartian
    Invelos Forums->General: General Discussion Page: 1 2 3 4  Previous   Next