Quoting surfeur51:

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Quoting Addicted2DVD:

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For example to me common sense tells me that when you have a collection catalog program such as this... you take all info from the exact source material... whether it is the cast and crew list.. no matter the spelling, overview exactly as on case... no matter the spelling errors. And so on.

That has nothing to do with common sense. These are preferences about a program that not one person upon 100 in the world even knows the name. Common sense is about general things that everybody does every day :  say children not to touch the hot oven, name people by their name, count in decimal system and not binary system, be careful when crossing a road, avoid spelling mistakes, install the TV so that the image is not up down, cut meat with knife and not with fork... could give a long list...

When rules are against this common sense, ordinary contributors may have a tendancy not to follow them...

It has nothing to do with what I prefer... in my mind I prefer other solutions to some of it.  I just used examples that were on topic to this program. Common sense tells me you avoid spelling mistakes when you are writing something. But not when you are transcribing what someone else wrote. As correcting is not part of transcribing something.

Quoting eommen:

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Wow,
W0m6at is right that your question basically returns a question dealt with in many threads on Invelos and Intervocative fora. It is the old question whether 'last' is meant as pure positional (Skip a.o. has always been a very vocal voice for this POV is and of course entitled to his view), or as synonymous to family name (surname), as in common English (throughout the years I've seen many more supporters of that view). Of course, the positional view requires just copying and also makes the parsing superfluous IMHO. The use in common language' view requires introducing facts outside the DVD itself. Which goes to say that both views have their pros and cons. Each could be used for cross-linking, but both require additional rules to counteract spelling errors, name changes (marriage!), and so on.

Ken has clarified that Last name = surname (family name) in the old David Ogden Stiers thread.  So this should not even be up for debate.

Quoting Ken Cole:

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Surname is the intent.  If that will result in less confusion, it's an easy change for the next release.  The CLT does not parse names since it doesn't use the name field, only the display name.  So, in the case of an entry with Credited As, it uses that.  Without a Credited As entry it uses the full display name.

Note that the issue of Asian name parsing remains open.

Unfortunately due to sheer amount of work that would be necessary and some vocal members objections, he has left the issue of Asian name parsing open.

Quoting xradman:

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Ken has clarified that Last name = surname (family name) in the old David Ogden Stiers thread.  So this should not even be up for debate.

Well that settles it then. I'll resubmit my contribution regarding Nakamura Shidou, as Nakamura is his family name and not first name. I'll just make a more thorough submission with better sources to solidify this.


Quoting Dr Pavlov:

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xradman:

As I said you can argue it till you are blue in the face and you have. The guidance that I can offer remains the same, quite frankly when we did this i didn't conside the asian , not from lack of knowledge, but I for one figured users to be intelligent enough to understand that we are trying to mirror the appearance of the data On Screen, not to be concerned about issues which are more appropriate to a family tree program. But you have proven that you are for whatever reason that you are interested in the family Tree aspect of it, why this is true, I have no idea, though i have my theories. I have repeatedly said whatever can be worked out that leaves the concept As Credited/Credited As is fine, but the culture is the credits not any given culture. The data needs to appear as it does On screen, which i what you are trying to deviate from. note that ken's comment relative to Stiers had no real effect on the APPEARANCE of the data just as appearance wise H/B/C=H//BC.

Skip

Interesting train of thought. Let's go with the bold part a bit further:
If all you care about is mirroring the data as it appears on-screen, what's the purpose then of pouring it into the form of a searchable database?

The way I see it, if all you want is to mirror the onscreen data, you can just create a non-searchable, static HTML page which lists the cast & crew.

However, this is not how DVD Profiler (or other such programs) is built. It is built as a searchable database and as such, it can only achieve it's full potential IF the data submitted is uniform and logic.


When I now search my database for Nakamura Shidou, I get two actor profiles, each with their own list of movies they appear in. This is not how a correct database would function. A well constructed database will give only ONE actor with a list of all the movies he appeared in.


I can understand your yearning for faithful on-screen data reproduction, but in doing so you in a sense limit DVD Profilers usability as a searchable database (which in my opinion, it was built to be).

Quoting Dr. Killpatient:

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Thus any typo's should be preserved to reflect the true historic information.

Why not just have a scan of the overview, screencaptures of credits, and put them in photo gallery. Reflecting exactly the DVD. No use, and no interest, but this is not a problem, isn't it ?

Quoting Taro:

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Quoting xradman:

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Ken has clarified that Last name = surname (family name) in the old David Ogden Stiers thread.  So this should not even be up for debate.

Well that settles it then. I'll resubmit my contribution regarding Nakamura Shidou, as Nakamura is his family name and not first name. I'll just make a more thorough submission with better sources to solidify this.


Quoting Dr Pavlov:

Quote:
xradman:

As I said you can argue it till you are blue in the face and you have. The guidance that I can offer remains the same, quite frankly when we did this i didn't conside the asian , not from lack of knowledge, but I for one figured users to be intelligent enough to understand that we are trying to mirror the appearance of the data On Screen, not to be concerned about issues which are more appropriate to a family tree program. But you have proven that you are for whatever reason that you are interested in the family Tree aspect of it, why this is true, I have no idea, though i have my theories. I have repeatedly said whatever can be worked out that leaves the concept As Credited/Credited As is fine, but the culture is the credits not any given culture. The data needs to appear as it does On screen, which i what you are trying to deviate from. note that ken's comment relative to Stiers had no real effect on the APPEARANCE of the data just as appearance wise H/B/C=H//BC.

Skip

Interesting train of thought. Let's go with the bold part a bit further:
If all you care about is mirroring the data as it appears on-screen, what's the purpose then of pouring it into the form of a searchable database?

The way I see it, if all you want is to mirror the onscreen data, you can just create a non-searchable, static HTML page which lists the cast & crew.

However, this is not how DVD Profiler (or other such programs) is built. It is built as a searchable database and as such, it can only achieve it's full potential IF the data submitted is uniform and logic.


When I now search my database for Nakamura Shidou, I get two actor profiles, each with their own list of movies they appear in. This is not how a correct database would function. A well constructed database will give only ONE actor with a list of all the movies he appeared in.


I can understand your yearning for faithful on-screen data reproduction, but in doing so you in a sense limit DVD Profilers usability as a searchable database (which in my opinion, it was built to be).

Excellent post Taro! I think we all sometimes forget what the purpose of this program really is, although I understand that might be different for some users. Although it does require a lot more work, doing as a couple others have suggested, by using the credited as feature, would solve the 2 actor delimma. If you were to enter said credit as Shindou Nakamura [Nakamura Shindou], when you double click his name you should get a list of movies under "Shindou Nakamura" not the opposite.

The down side is, if others have submitted countless titles following strickly credited as then you have a lot of work ahead of you since the one change you made is specific to that title alone. I have had titles that have had 75% of it's actors using aliases for voice work. Having to use the credited as feature for all those names just to fix one title's linking is a lot of work. I do hope Ken is trying to figure out a much more streamlined approach to our cast and crew linking.

Hear hear, Unicus! I could not agree more. 

Which BTW is not to say the name linking system is not in desperate need of an overhaul, because it IS a mess, the way things are standing now. But we really SHOULD consider the consequences of any changes first, and not just for our own collections.

I also own tons of asian movies, and I agree with all of you here, that the issue with asian surenames needs to be fixed, in either way.

Right now I eneter everything as credited, which is correct according to the rules.
But it is also frustrating, knowing myself it is wrong what I am entering.
But as long as KEN doesn't put this into the rules, i will continue to enter as credited

There are also no middle names in Asia, this also needs to be put in the rules.

cheers
Donnie

In all fairness, I indeed don't have 1000+ asian DVD's but I think I'm slowly approaching the 800. The difference is I didn't input them in DVD Profiler yet, exactly because the current submission system for Japanese characters and crew isn't a proficient system. For now I keep them in my old Movie Collector database, of which you can find a severely outdated list here, to have an idea:
http://www.taro.dommel.be/DVD/index.html
Even though I'm not the person with the most asian DVD's on this board, I think my collection should be sufficient to count me among those that are 'concerned' with this matter.

That being said, I agree it would take a lot of work to clean up the database and systematically input or re-input the names with the correct name in the Last name field and the correct name in the First name field. However, the longer a clear decision is being dragged out, the worse things will be to adapt and as such, I think it's worth to keep bringing attention to this now. Even if it takes time and effort, I think it's worth it to have an actual working database instead of an amalgam that isn't workable as a database.

Quoting Dr Pavlov:

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Taro:

There will be users who will vote No and you will in all likelihood be declined again. Fair warning.

I have explained it and offered guidance. You stated very correctly what your personal preference is, and your personal preference has NO BUSINESS in the Online database.

Skip

Why decline if I follow the rules? Ken stated that Last means last name and First means First name. As such, when I find an actor credited, I put his first name in the First field and last name in the Last field.

Yes, I have stated my personal preference but if the 'Last' field is meant to contain the Last name, then that's where Nakamura should go and not Shidou like it is now, per the rules.


In closing, I go back to my previous statement and to what Surfeur said: if all that is required is a simple copy-paste of the cover & credits of a movie, then by all means, Invelos can feel free to throw out every single database ability of the software, as it will effectively be useless.

Why build a cast/crew database with pictures, if it is inconsistent?
Why create advanced filtering options if these filters can't correctly be used?

As much as it pains me to say this, I agree with Surfeur and we can just go to a DVD Profiler that is nothing more than a collection of cover scans and screen shots of credits. It'll be easier to program and then all the users who fervently advocate the blind copy-pasting of data will have exactly what they want.

For those users, like me, who came here looking for a workable, searchable and consistent database to help pick movies from and filter your collection, DVD Profiler will effectively have become useless.

At any rate, a choice needs to be made: either go for a REAL database or static listing. Now we're somewhere in between and I feel in the long run this will keep causing problems and frustration among users.