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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Using dividers for song titles in crew contributions |
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| Author |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 4,245 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quote:
Dividers allow the segregation of cast and crew into logical groupings. Wherever possible, these groupings should mirror the film credits. And that's where I can see some see that Song Titles can be entered for the Song Writers that wrote it. The Song Title can be seen as valuable data to some because it informs what song the song writers wrote. Since Custom Roles can't be contributed, but dividers can I can see where it does add valuable data in some users minds. Otherwise the song writers credits can be vague especially to those that don't own/have that particular title and can't enter it into the custom role themselves since they can't look at the actual credits. | | | | Last edited: by CubbyUps |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | By the same token, we'd have to use dividers to specify any kind of "Original Material" a screenplay is based on - why use dividers to list the name of an original song, but not use them to indicate the name of the book the screenplay is based on? That's the exact same thing. The next thing, I fear, is using dividers to indicate that a make-up artist isn't just a make-up artist but the "Make-up Artist for Mr. De Niro". There again, someone will say that it adds value, and therefore warrants a divider. But it doesn't. Sure, it adds context, but we just don't store that context in the online database. Instead, it only belongs in the custom crew role field - [i]that's[i] where you can track this kind of additional context. It seems to me that Corne basically wants to abandon the custom crew role field, and wants to put any data from there into a group divider instead...  Also, to address the "logical groupings" thing - keep in mind that, in order to make his stance seem more plausible, Corne conveniently "forgets" to mention that many original songs are only written by one person. He refers to them as "song writer teams". But this doesn't fly when it's just one song writer - or is one person suddenly a "logical grouping", too?!  | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 20, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 2,851 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Corne: Quote:
Quoting Kevin Coed:
The rules don't need to be twisted for adding Song Titles as dividers:
Do group dividers with the song titles mirror the film credits? Yes.
Do Song Titles of the writer teams account for logical grouping? Yes.
Is that creative interpreting of the rules? I don't think it is. I even think that reasoning the other way around could be considered creative interpreting. Here is what the rules say about Group Dividers and crew: Quote:
If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name.
use Group dividers for crew teams So however you decide to interpret what you've indicated, what we do know is that a "group" must include more than one crew member. A songwriter is not a group, and so a song written by one credited song writer canot be entered as a group header. If we're not able to enter all songs as group headers, I think we should exclude songs as group headers. --------------- | | | | Last edited: by scotthm |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Corne: Quote:
There's no rule that tells us to add dividers for Visual Effects teams. We can go on an on that way. The divider section of the rules says this: Maybe I missed it somewhere, but who is adding dividers for Visual Effects teams? As far as I can tell, dividers are only being added when they are listed under a company name...which is allowed by the rule you quoted.  Quoting Corne: Quote:
Yes it's legitimate because there's no rule that prohibits the use of group dividers for song writer teams. What if it is a single song writer, and not a 'team'? This logic means a divider for some songs and not for others. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Corne | | Registered: Nov. 1, 2000 |
| Registered: April 5, 2007 | | Posts: 1,059 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
By the same token, we'd have to use dividers to specify any kind of "Original Material" a screenplay is based on - why use dividers to list the name of an original song, but not use them to indicate the name of the book the screenplay is based on. That's the exact same thing. The next thing, I fear, is using dividers to indicate that a make-up artist isn't just a make-up artist but the "Make-up Artist for Mr. De Niro". There again, someone will say that it adds value, and therefore warrants a divider. But it doesn't. Sure, it adds context, but we just don't store that context in the online database. Instead, it only belongs in the custom crew role field - [i]that's[i] where you can track this kind of additional context.
Also, to address the "logical groupings" thing - keep in mind that, in order to make his preference seem more plausible, Corne conveniently "forgets" to mention that many original songs are only written by one person. He refers to them as "song writer teams". But this doesn't fly when it's just one song writer - or is one person suddenly a "logical grouping", too?! Like there are no Visual Effects dividers for just one person The songs are made by a team of song writers, producers, performers etc. For DVD Profiler we track the writers only, just like we only track Visual Effects supervisors, designers or drectors. Okay there are songs made by just one person. But the same goes for some visual effects. although less common than for songs. How could a credit like "Make-up Artist for Mr. De Niro" be added with a divider? It doesn't even mirror the credits. | | | | Cor |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting scotthm: Quote:
So however you decide to interpret what you've indicated, what we do know is that a "group" must include more than one crew member. A songwriter is not a group, and so a song written by one credited song writer canot be entered as a group header.
If we're not able to enter all songs as group headers, I think we should exclude songs as group headers. Agreed! Even if Corne tries really hard to justify the use of dividers for this by pointing out that it isn't specifically forbidden, so it must be okay, even that approach really can't turn one song writer into a "team" or a "group". So even Corne is faced with the question: do I treat a song written by one person differently than a song written by two people (I sure hope not), or is this maybe a hint that we aren't supposed to use crew dividers for this? Of course it's the latter. Look, the whole concept just doesn't make any kind of sense. For each and every crew credit, any such additional context is stored in the custom crew role field. I don't see how this is any different. We store a generic "original material by" credit in the online database, and those who are interested, have the ability to use the custom crew field to specify exactly what that "original material" is. We store a generic "song writer" credit in the online database, and those who are interested, have the ability to use the custom crew field to specify what that song is. We store a generic "make-up artist" credit in the online database, and those who are interested, have the ability to use the custom crew field to specify whose make-up artist it is. And so on. Bottom line: we already have a field in which to put this information, so there's no need for a divider. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Corne: Quote:
Like there are no Visual Effects dividers for just one person The fact that we can only enter one of the crew members, under the company name, doesn't change the fact that the company name heads a group of crew. Quote:
The songs are made by a team of song writers, producers, performers etc. For DVD Profiler we track the writers only, just like we only track Visual Effects supervisors, designers or drectors. Okay there are songs made by just one person. But the same goes for some visual effects. although less common than for songs. A song title isn't a company, so that portion of the rule doesn't apply. The only portion that does apply, is the 'team' portion. Since all we track are the writers, then that is the only 'team' eligible. Producers, performers, etc. can't be considered as part of the 'team', so a single writer would not get a divider. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: March 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,851 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Corne: Quote:
How could a credit like "Make-up Artist for Mr. De Niro" be added with a divider? It doesn't even mirror the credits. It shouldn't be entered as a group divider. If it is being done so it is wrong. --------------- |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 |  Posts: 278 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
A song title isn't a company, so that portion of the rule doesn't apply. The only portion that does apply, is the 'team' portion. Since all we track are the writers, then that is the only 'team' eligible. Producers, performers, etc. can't be considered as part of the 'team', so a single writer would not get a divider. And nor should two, or more, writers for a song - with the possible exception that a band name was credited alongside - then I could see the band name being used as a divider - but certainly not a song title. It's a song title!!! | | | | Guns don't kill people. Hammers do. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 3,197 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quote:
And nor should two, or more, writers for a song - with the possible exception that a band name was credited alongside - then I could see the band name being used as a divider - but certainly not a song title. It's a song title!!! Exactly. | | | | First registered: February 15, 2002 |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | I sincerely hope we can put this one to bed now, and that it's clear to everyone that we don't use group dividers for song writers. Meaning: so we won't need to have this exact same debate over again next month or so? That would be great. |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 278 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
I sincerely hope we can put this one to bed now, and that it's clear to everyone that we don't use group dividers for song writers. Meaning: so we won't need to have this exact same debate over again next month or so? That would be great. Sorry... | | | | Guns don't kill people. Hammers do. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Kevin Coed: Quote:
Sorry... Don't be. You saw something you weren't sure of and asked in the proper forum. Nothing wrong there. What I think T!M is refering to is the constant back and forth that we have over these types of issues. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
What I think T!M is refering to is the constant back and forth that we have over these types of issues. Indeed. Asking a question and getting an answer is great, of course, and I'm always happy to offer my opinion, or to see if I can dig up any previous discussion on the matter (as I was able to do here). But I don't understand why we then have to follow that by doing the exact same debate all over again. Pretty much everything that was said here, was said in the previous debate as well - note for note. Needless to say, the outcome is the same as well. It seems we're having the same conversations over and over again, with the same arguments, often even from the same participants. It just seems to be a waste of everyone's time. That's why I'm hoping this particular issue's settled now, so that the next time anyone asks about it, someone can just point to this thread, without having to go through the entire debate from scratch again... |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,777 |
| | Posted: | | | | Personally, I can't see what the difference is. I'm seeing profile submissions with blank dividers, presumably put there to generate some kind of spacing. It's pretty obvious the whole divider thing is fubar so what the heck. At least these dividers aren't blank.  |
| | Corne | | Registered: Nov. 1, 2000 |
| Registered: April 5, 2007 | | Posts: 1,059 |
| | Posted: | | | | I stopped arguing here because this will never get a solution and like T!M said I consider more arguing a waste of my time. Both sides have their arguments and are both not willing to give in, not even by an inch. The tone of some posts (not only in this topic) makes me sometimes consider not to participate on this forum any more and keep it to contributions only. I like it to be to the point and with arguments. Some forum posters lower themselves to personal attacks and remarks with double meanings. That's just human I suppose... | | | | Cor |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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