Quoting reybr:

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To me that doesn't make any sense at all!

It doesn't. But nobody ever said that it did. This is exactly as I've just described for the "Special Effects" credit. Same person, same job, different label. In the case of the "Music Supervisor", I have to admit that I'm actually very glad that it is the way it is, because I wouldn't want to have to enter the "Music Supervisor" credited alongside the actual composer in pretty much every recent film. Rather than opening up the database for all of that, I'd rather keep that lone Oliver Wallace credit local.

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Especially when I think of 'Costume Supervisors' or 'wardrobe' in newer movies that are entered as Costume Designers when they have nothing to do with the design of the costumes. Yes I know they are allowed, but imo that was a bad ruling)

That was a really bad ruling indeed. So please let's not make the same mistake again here. Allowing thousands of "Music Supervisors" in modern films a shared "Composer" credit with the actual composer while they really had nothing to do with the score (instead, they're responsible for selecting and licensing music other than the score), would be the same mistake as awarding wardrobe supervisors a joint "costume designer" credit together with the actual costume designer. That should never have happened, and this shouldn't happen either.

Quoting T!M:

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I'd rather keep that lone Oliver Wallace credit local.

It's not a lone Oliver Wallace, T!M. We have the same problem with Paul J. Smith, Carl Stalling, Milt Franklyn and numerous others.

But how about this: Since we now got rid of Sound Recordist if there are a production mixer in the credits, could we enter the music supervisors of no other composer credits? That would please both camps wouldn't it? Yes I know that this is a conditional and that you hate that Skip, but we already have conditionals in the rules and I don't see the big problem with it.

Either way, if you don't want music supervisors in the credits, the rules have to be changed. As they stand now, music supervisors are allowed.

Quoting T!M:

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This is the most difficult one, since, frankly, the rules on this don't make any sense. The exact same bunch of people, doing the exact same job, is occasionally credited as just "Special Effects", or as "Special Effects Technicians", or as "Special Effects Crew". Additionally, the leader of the pack is often credited as "Special Effects Foreman". As it stands, CubbyUps is right in saying that only true "Special Effects" credits are allowed, but every time I get to enter six "Special Effects" credits but am forced to leave out the "Special Effects Foreman" listed right before that bunch of six, I can't help thinking something's wrong. Same when I just audited a movie where I did get to enter six "Special Effects" credit, and then I recognize those same names in the next movie I'm auditing, but now they're called "Special Effects Technicians", and I'm suddenly supposed to leave them out. All in all, I don't think it makes much sense - I'd rather track all of them or none of them - but as it stands, I would not contribute "Special Effects Crew" into the database.

I see that also quite a bit. After doing many Visual Effects crew I've seen many people credited with different things, some very strange.

For example I keep local these.
Model Shop Supervisor
Effects Supervisor
Computer Graphics Supervisor (AKA CG or CGI Supervisor)
Art Director
Animation Supervisor
Shop Foreman
Set Foreman
Mechanical Effects
Practical Effects
Digital Supervisor (Most likely short for Digital Effects Supervisor, but I still keep it local)

Then for example there is Jurassic Park where some very well known people get credited with some unique credits.
Dennis Muren: Full-Motion Dinosaurs
Stan Winston: Live Action Dinosaurs
Phil Tippett: Dinosaur Supervisor
Michael Lantieri: Special Dinosaur Effects

So yes, the Visual/Special Effects credits are rather confusing to say the least.

Quoting T!M:

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Quoting reybr:

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could we enter the music supervisors of no other composer credits?

I'm all for using more conditionals like that. I know some people don't like them, but in many cases, it really is the only way to get the right people in the database. So yeah, I would happily support this, just as I have (and still do) supported to do the same for "wardrobe/costume supervisor" and the like: only enter them when there's no real costume designer credit.

Tim:

To be precise there is, in my view, a proper way to deal with conditionals and in fact way back when we had requested a conditional from Ken. I don't remember specifically which one now, but the concept based on his recent Ruling, if PSM is present and checked, then Sound would not be accessible (grayed out). This type of conditional is far less confusing to users and, in fact is probably a lot clearer. Oh, OK I can't use this creit. But, in the case of Music Supervisor I would far prefer to MS adde to the group than to use a conditional which makes a Composer credit a Music Supervisor and in the end tells me as a user nothing...unless I use the custom credit, which I cannot get via update, so via update I am stuck with misleading and unclear data, all so some user can service his own needs. It is things like this which cause me to not Contribute and make me extremely picky about whose updates or what updates I will accept. <whispers> It's why i keep bitching at you, Tim. You do great work my friend, but your notes SUCK.

Rho:

That's why I tried to explain to eybr, that despite an obvious flaw in the Rules in this particular regard. The role of Music Supervisor, is neither fish nor fowl, it simply does not fall into any of aour current jobs and reybr's insistence is simply self-serving. It's too bad and i will watch him carefully in this regard and vote No if i need to, I said to myself the same thing that reybr did when I first read the Rule that ken added. But then I started analyzing it and realized that it did not really fit and entry would not serve the Community, so for now I enter them as OTHER and a Custom Role, I also track Title Designers the same way and Music Performers under Other as well. And perhaps Ken will add them, but I will not excuse the position that reybr has taken while technically correct he is NOT serving the community buut his own interests. Sorry reybr, that's how i see it.

Quoting Prof. Kingsfield:

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To be precise there is, in my view, a proper way to deal with conditionals and in fact way back when we had requested a conditional from Ken. I don't remember specifically which one now, but the concept based on his recent Ruling, if PSM is present and checked, then Sound would not be accessible (grayed out). This type of conditional is far less confusing to users and, in fact is probably a lot clearer. Oh, OK I can't use this creit.

I'd be all for "graying out" certain options as part of an "if...then" conditional. Personally, I'm already happy with just a rule - less work for Ken - but if something like that can be implemented to make it easier: great!

Quoting T!M:

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Quoting Prof. Kingsfield:

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To be precise there is, in my view, a proper way to deal with conditionals and in fact way back when we had requested a conditional from Ken. I don't remember specifically which one now, but the concept based on his recent Ruling, if PSM is present and checked, then Sound would not be accessible (grayed out). This type of conditional is far less confusing to users and, in fact is probably a lot clearer. Oh, OK I can't use this creit.

I'd be all for "graying out" certain options as part of an "if...then" conditional. Personally, I'm already happy with just a rule - less work for Ken - but if something like that can be implemented to make it easier: great!

We requested exactly that as it related to Sound, Tim. I forget the specifics but it was Sound and we specifically requested that under specific parameters it be grayed out. I don't know if Ken couldn't do it, didn't know how or what. I remember now that it upset me, because it left me scrambling trying to explain the famous "primarily used in older films" phrase, and Hollywood wasn't helpful either.

Quoting RHo:

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As far as I know the main job of a music supervisor is not to compose the score. Otherwise he would have more likely been credited with music by or composed by. Therefore I'm happy that we do not enter him for that role.

Today, it's not his job, on that I can agree and as I've already said I would never add a music supervisor for a movie made today.

But to take Oliver Wallace as an example again. He did the score for all those cartoon shorts.
Also, if you look at this interview with Carl Stalling he says that he composed the scores. I don't understand how that doesn't make him a composer.

This community confuses me. On one hand it will fight hard against adding valid crew members that are allowed by the rules and did the job we are after. On the other hand it fights hard to get a modern day costume supervisor or wardrobe supervisor listed as a costume designer because it is in the crew chart even though a costume supervisor isn't a costume designer at all.

And to you Skip: You don't have to look so hard at my contributions. If I contribute anyone with the role of Music Supervisor I'll make it perfectly clear in the notes. I don't see a reason to lie or hide that.