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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Picture-in-Picture Video Commentary |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Alien Redrum: Quote:
My interpretation of the rules are different than yours. Fair enough. I was hoping for a little more information as to why it was different but, such is life. Quote:
Ken should clarify this, I guess. I thought it was fairly clear, I guess I was mistaken...though, knowing why it is unclear would certainly have helped.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: August 23, 2008 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 1,656 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quoting Alien Redrum:
Quote:
My interpretation of the rules are different than yours.
Fair enough. I was hoping for a little more information as to why it was different but, such is life.
Quote:
Ken should clarify this, I guess.
I thought it was fairly clear, I guess I was mistaken...though, knowing why it is unclear would certainly have helped. Because it's a picture in picture commentary. If they are speaking, it's audio, so I'm all for checking audio commentary and picture and picture. Hell, if it's subtitled, check text commentary, audio commentary and pip. I'd vote yes. | | | Reviewer, HorrorTalk.com
"I also refuse to document CLT results and I pay my bills to avoid going to court." - Sam, keeping it real, yo. |
| | Registered: October 30, 2011 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 1,870 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Alien Redrum: Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
Quoting Alien Redrum:
Quote:
My interpretation of the rules are different than yours.
Fair enough. I was hoping for a little more information as to why it was different but, such is life.
Quote:
Ken should clarify this, I guess.
I thought it was fairly clear, I guess I was mistaken...though, knowing why it is unclear would certainly have helped.
Because it's a picture in picture commentary. If they are speaking, it's audio, so I'm all for checking audio commentary and picture and picture. Hell, if it's subtitled, check text commentary, audio commentary and pip. I'd vote yes. This is repitition to a previous comment I made, but it definitely applies to what you are saying In my mind ticking both undermines the usefulness of the data. Fundamentally requiring two selections for the same feature makes them appear separated when they are not. Since most PiP commentaries require certain level players it could make one think that a commentary was available that was not. By checking both it is not clear it is a PiP commentary or an audio commentary and some other PiP feature I think the best way to deal with this is via a "PiP Commentary" checkbox being added. I don't see an issue with this since from my observation most PiP features are commentaries. Also as far as subtitles go, there is a checkbox for commentary subtitles As the rules are written today a PiP commentary is a type of PiP feature and that is how we should leave it unless (or until) invelos wants to support other types of PiP clarifications. That is the only way to keep the current data clean based on the current allowed values. | | | | Last edited: by Scooter1836 |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 6,730 |
| | Posted: | | | | To repeat myself from another thread: There are several issues with this approach 1) Picture-in-Picture can be just about anything. If it was (for example) a Storyboard Comparison, it surely would get 2 flags, so why not for Commentary? In addition: does a Video Commentary necessarily have to be PiP? Other implementations are at least thinkable (e.g. Split-Screen) 2) With this logic "Text-Commentaries" should be excluded, since they are already listed within "Subtitles". And "Audio-Commentaries" are redundant since they are listed within "Audio-Tracks". 3) When having Commentaries in foreign languages, you will usually find Subtitles for them. Normally I would flag this in the "Subtitles"-section. Doing this for a Video-Commentary leads to inconsistencies (Flagged Subtitle, but no matching Extra-Feature) The same goes for the Audio-Track of the Video-Commentary (Audio Track entered, but no matching Extra) 4) Quote:
Since most PiP commentaries require certain level players it could make one think that a commentary was available that was not. Since all BluRays require certain level players, and I don't even get a picture if my AACS-keys are not updated, does that mean then that all profiles should be left entirely blank? Sorry, but your point is somewhat flawed here 5) Quote:
By checking both it is not clear it is a PiP commentary or an audio commentary and some other PiP feature I think you misunderstand the function of the checkbox. It's there to simply indicate the presence of a certain feature. And by all means, if it's a Commentary it's a Commentary, no matter how it is implemented. | | | It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?
Registrant since 05/22/2003 |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 8,723 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Lewis_Prothero: Quote:
3) When having Commentaries in foreign languages, you will usually find Subtitles for them.
Normally I would flag this in the "Subtitles"-section. Doing this for a Video-Commentary leads to inconsistencies (Flagged Subtitle, but no matching Extra-Feature)
The same goes for the Audio-Track of the Video-Commentary (Audio Track entered, but no matching Extra) Since it's a PiP-feature, it doesn't *HAVE* a regular audio track, nor a regular subtitle stream. A PiP-feature has their own sub-set of properties, but they're not among the regular set of audio tracks and subtitle streams. That's exactly the point here: there's no "Commentary" audio track, yet some of us insist on ticking the "Commentary" box. That's exactly the inconsistency you're talking about, but the other way around... And that's how I understand the rules as well: a "regular" commentary audio track, one that's present as a normal audio track, possibly accompanied by one or more sets of normal subtitle streams, should, of course, be entered as "Commentary". But this is something else - a PiP-feature - and the fact that here's no regular audio track that we can list for it further underlines that. It's first and foremost a PiP-feature, so it seems to me that that's the only checkbox the rules really call for to be checked. Your mileage will, of course, vary... |
| | Registered: October 30, 2011 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,870 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Lewis_Prothero: Quote:
1) Picture-in-Picture can be just about anything.
If it was (for example) a Storyboard Comparison, it surely would get 2 flags, so why not for Commentary?
In addition: does a Video Commentary necessarily have to be PiP?
Other implementations are at least thinkable (e.g. Split-Screen)
I have not seen a split screen commentary, you will have to give an example Quoting Lewis_Prothero: Quote:
5) Quote:
By checking both it is not clear it is a PiP commentary or an audio commentary and some other PiP feature
I think you misunderstand the function of the checkbox. It's there to simply indicate the presence of a certain feature. And by all means, if it's a Commentary it's a Commentary, no matter how it is implemented. I think you are misunderstanding the PiP checkbox Quote:
Picture-in-picture content integrated into the main feature or supplimental content, not including the menus themselves.
Which states to check it if any PiP content exists at all whether it be a commentary or a storyborad, etc. But you still do no address my point about checking both. Where you are applying two attributes to one single feature. It undermines the usefulness of the data. Right now in todays rules and data all PiP content iis covered under PiP and that is best because of simplicity, eveyone knows when you have a PiP commentary you select that one snd no confusion on do they have to check both, or just the commentary. By checking both how does one know it is a PiP commentary when both are checked as opposed to an audio and other PiP content. In my opinoin we are better off just knowing that there is PiP content as what is currently designed. Certainly for the omline DB we need the data to be clear and not add ambiguity to the rules or the interpretation of the data. As always people can do as they like locally | | | | Last edited: by Scooter1836 |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,730 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Scooter1836: Quote:
Quoting Lewis_Prothero:
Quote:
1) Picture-in-Picture can be just about anything.
If it was (for example) a Storyboard Comparison, it surely would get 2 flags, so why not for Commentary?
In addition: does a Video Commentary necessarily have to be PiP?
Other implementations are at least thinkable (e.g. Split-Screen)
I have not seen a split screen commentary, you will have to give an example There doesn't have to be an example the important word in that sentence was thinkable. The important sentences in the paragraph, nevertheless, were the two above this sentence. Quote:
Quote:
I think you are misunderstanding the PiP checkbox
Quote:
Picture-in-picture content integrated into the main feature or supplimental content, not including the menus themselves.
Which states to check it if any PiP content exists at all whether it be a commentary or a storyborad, etc. Yupp, but what it doesn't tell is that PiP gets an exclusive over the actual content. So, yes it defines what PiP is, but there is no way you could read from it to omit the actual content. Quote:
But you still do no address my point about checking both. Where you are applying two attributes to one single feature. It undermines the usefulness of the data. It does? In how far is NOT showing the full width of Extra-Features more helpful than the opposite? Nevertheless, it in fact is done, if the Extra (within PiP) is a Featurette (e.g. Making Of Special Effects), a Storyboard Comparison, or a BD-Live Feature. And to be a bit more precise on my point: PiP is no Feature as such, but simply indicates the way a Feature is implemented. PiP without content is simply nothing. Quote:
By checking both how does one know it is a PiP commentary when both are checked as opposed to an audio and other PiP content. You wouldn't until you enter the disc. The important point is that you'd already know that there is a commentary, if you are looking for one. And since now I have (hopefully) answered your questions, would you now please answer mine? 1) Picture-in-Picture can be just about anything. If it was (for example) a Storyboard Comparison, it surely would get 2 flags, so why not for Commentary? 2) In addition: does a Video Commentary necessarily have to be PiP? | | | It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?
Registrant since 05/22/2003 |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Since it's a PiP-feature, it doesn't *HAVE* a regular audio track, nor a regular subtitle stream. A PiP-feature has their own sub-set of properties, but they're not among the regular set of audio tracks and subtitle streams. That's exactly the point here: there's no "Commentary" audio track, yet some of us insist on ticking the "Commentary" box. That's exactly the inconsistency you're talking about, but the other way around...
And that's how I understand the rules as well: a "regular" commentary audio track, one that's present as a normal audio track, possibly accompanied by one or more sets of normal subtitle streams, should, of course, be entered as "Commentary". But this is something else - a PiP-feature - and the fact that here's no regular audio track that we can list for it further underlines that. It's first and foremost a PiP-feature, so it seems to me that that's the only checkbox the rules really call for to be checked. Your mileage will, of course, vary... This is my thinking as well. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Lewis_Prothero: Quote:
And since now I have (hopefully) answered your questions, would you now please answer mine?
1) Picture-in-Picture can be just about anything.
If it was (for example) a Storyboard Comparison, it surely would get 2 flags, so why not for Commentary? I wouldn't give it 2 flags. As I said in the other forum, regardless of what it contains, a PiP is still a PiP. Checking any other box gives the impression that the content contained in the PiP is stand alone content. Quote:
2) In addition: does a Video Commentary necessarily have to be PiP? How else would it be presented? | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,730 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Checking any other box gives the impression that the content contained in the PiP is stand alone content. Did you at least read my comment above? PiP is by definition not Stand-Alone content, it isn't even content. It merely shows the way in which the content, or at least parts of it are presented. Now omitting the actual content, just because it is presented as PiP would give the impression that it isn't existing. | | | It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?
Registrant since 05/22/2003 |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Lewis_Prothero: Quote:
Did you at least read my comment above? I did, I just don't agree with it. Quote:
PiP is by definition not Stand-Alone content, it isn't even content.
It merely shows the way in which the content, or at least parts of it are presented.
Now omitting the actual content, just because it is presented as PiP would give the impression that it isn't existing. No doubt, but I don't see the need to give one false impression in order to prevent giving another one. A better method, in my opinion, would be to add a feature that would allow us to list the actual contents of the PiP. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,730 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
A better method, in my opinion, would be to add a feature that would allow us to list the actual contents of the PiP. On this we can agree. The probably even better solution would be to remove PiP for not being a Feature, but merely a form of presentation. Let's just hope any of this is ever going to happen. Because (and this is just for the sake of the discussion), if for what reason ever we find a Blu that has all it's Extras presented as PiP, following your logic would result in only PiP being flagged. This would, in fact, then tell us nothing about the actual content. All we'd know is how it is presented. Sorry, but IMO this approach makes absolutely no sense. | | | It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?
Registrant since 05/22/2003 | | | | Last edited: by Lewis_Prothero |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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