Welcome to the Invelos forums. Please read the forum rules before posting.

Read access to our public forums is open to everyone. To post messages, a free registration is required.

If you have an Invelos account, sign in to post.

    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2 3 4  Previous   Next
Howard Berger credit, How to credit?
Author Message
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorScooter1836
Registered: October 30, 2011
Reputation: Great Rating
United States Posts: 1,870
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
Quoting Rizor:
Quote:
I know it's silly, but it's what the rules say to do. But I agree that given the evidence, "makeup effects" makes the most sense. I think with the "SFX Make-up by KNB EFX Group" divider, it'd be okay to include him as "make-up effects" with an explanation.

If the alternative is to leave him out, I would rather have him included under a generic SFX credit but, yea, if the divider allows him to be entered properly, then that is the best solution.


This ^^

The reality is he is credited as a Special Effects Supervisor and not Make Up Effects.  For is to re-interpret in my opinion would be wrong.  The divider puts context via the company.  There are many threads going far back in time showing how we interpret abbreviations like VFX and SFX
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorScooter1836
Registered: October 30, 2011
Reputation: Great Rating
United States Posts: 1,870
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
Quoting Rizor:
Quote:
SFX is a well known abbreviation of "Special Effects", so it's a direct translation of "Special Effects Supervisor" which is on the list.

I guess the problem is that he's technical credited as special effects supervisor, but may actually be the makeup effects supervisor. Personally, I'd lean towards giving him a visual effects credit as that's what the chart says it'd be according to his credit. Including "SFX Make-up by KNB EFX Group" may help to contextualize it. But it's tricky.

Here's a bio of the guy: https://www.stanwinstonschool.com/artists/special-effects-character-creator-howard-berger

This ^


This ^ This ^ This ^
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorateo357
Registered: December 27, 2009
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 5,131
Posted:
PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
Make-up Effects or Visual Effects are both correct. One is DVDP rules and the other is reality.

In my personal he would be Make-up Effects (If I owned it)
 Last edited: by ateo357
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorGreyHulk
Fixin' it for everyone..
Registered: November 24, 2008
Reputation: Highest Rating
United Kingdom Posts: 1,261
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting GreyHulk:
Quote:
[group divider] SFX Make-up by KNB EFX Group
Howard Berger as Make-up Effects

Reality.
 Last edited: by GreyHulk
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorScooter1836
Registered: October 30, 2011
Reputation: Great Rating
United States Posts: 1,870
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting ateo357:
Quote:
Make-up Effects or Visual Effects are both correct. One is DVDP rules and the other is reality.

In my personal he would be Make-up Effects (If I owned it)


True and I might agree, but when it comes to crew there is reality and there are DVP rules and unfortunately we contribute to the online based on the DVDP rules and not reality.  As bad as that sounds it's true.

However Make-up Effects is not reality.  The reality is he is credited as "SFX Supervisor" but if forced to translate his true role "Makeup Effects" may be interpreted closer to reality.  But like I said that does not matter, we have a strict translation table for the online database.
 Last edited: by Scooter1836
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorateo357
Registered: December 27, 2009
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 5,131
Posted:
PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting GreyHulk:
Quote:
Quoting GreyHulk:
Quote:
[group divider] SFX Make-up by KNB EFX Group
Howard Berger as Make-up Effects

Reality.



This is how it should be, since he is listed within that group. Same as Make-up artist would be within that group.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorScooter1836
Registered: October 30, 2011
Reputation: Great Rating
United States Posts: 1,870
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting ateo357:
Quote:
Quoting GreyHulk:
Quote:
Quoting GreyHulk:
Quote:
[group divider] SFX Make-up by KNB EFX Group
Howard Berger as Make-up Effects

Reality.



This is how it should be, since he is listed within that group. Same as Make-up artist would be within that group.


For peoples local DB's maybe, but the online needs to follow the rules for consistency, which unfortunately means "Visual Effects".
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorateo357
Registered: December 27, 2009
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 5,131
Posted:
PM this userDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting Scooter1836:
Quote:
Quoting ateo357:
Quote:
Quoting GreyHulk:
Quote:
Quoting GreyHulk:
Quote:
[group divider] SFX Make-up by KNB EFX Group
Howard Berger as Make-up Effects

Reality.



This is how it should be, since he is listed within that group. Same as Make-up artist would be within that group.



For peoples local DB's maybe, but the online needs to follow the rules for consistency, which unfortunately means "Visual Effects".


Unfortunately common sense takes the back seat again, because of the rules, and the unwritten no common sense rule.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
Strength Through Unity
Registered: May 19, 2007
Reputation: Superior Rating
Germany Posts: 6,730
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Now there is an unwritten, but ever so often mentioned rule in Profiler-Land:

Quote:
If unclear: Omit


And if the header tells me that Make-Up Effect credits follow and the next credit is a Visual Effect credit this is (at least) ambiguous and therefore should be omitted.

From the context it becomes quite clear that what is actually meant is SFX - Make-Up Supervisor.
Why would I want to enter this with a completely different job-descriptor?
Just to have the name listed?  For a job that person has actually never worked in?

You may enter this, because technically you are correct, but what would be the point?

Common sense may have to take a backseat in Profiler-Land, but FWIW it is still in the car.
And to stay in your picture: The guy with the steering wheel in the hand may drive, but it's usually the guy in the backseat that tells the driver where to.
It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


Registrant since 05/22/2003
 Last edited: by Lewis_Prothero
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorbigdaddyhorse
Registered: June 21, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
United States Posts: 2,621
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting huskersports:
Quote:
Do the people at KNB EFX Group do work other than Special Effects Make-Up?  If they do just plain old Special Effects, then the SFX Supervisor could very well be for Special Effects, not Make-Up Effects.


Like ateo357 said, they also do design. I have never seen any of them credited for anything digital though, they are all practical effects or make-up which is why they rule.

I just looked through my collection and have 103 credits for Howard. Besides a few custom ones (Creature effects crew) every single one id for make-up effects with a couple creature designs thrown in.

For partner Greg Nicotreo I have 105, same thing, few custom (assistant to Tom Savini, make-up effects producer, special make-up assistant) but all for make-up effects.

For other partner Robert Kurtzman, I have 64 credits. He directed a couple things and has a writing credit or 3, and does have 2 "visual effects" credits, but the rest are make-up effects related. The numbers are different as Greg and Robert have lots of older credits before KNB was formed. His VFX credits are more recent as KNB doesn't always work together anymore. In the films he has VFX for (Devil's Rejects and Hostel), DR has no credits for KNB or the other 2 guys. Hostel does have make-up effects for the partners. In Hostel KNB is credited for the make-up, Kurtzman under a "Precinct 13 Entertainment" divider. I think he split to pursue digital and directing work, Berger and Nicotero act here and there but nothing else yet.
 Last edited: by bigdaddyhorse
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorscotthm
Registered: March 20, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
United States Posts: 2,850
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting Lewis_Prothero:
Quote:
And if the header tells me that Make-Up Effect credits follow and the next credit is a Visual Effect credit this is (at least) ambiguous and therefore should be omitted.

What's ambiguous about "SFX Supervisor"?  The only reason you think it's ambiguous is because you don't believe it's an accurate credit.  However it is THE credit.

I don't think the online database wants to know what everyone's job was, it just wants to know how everyone is credited*.

---------------

* Hypothetically, of course. 
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
Strength Through Unity
Registered: May 19, 2007
Reputation: Superior Rating
Germany Posts: 6,730
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting scotthm:
Quote:
Quoting Lewis_Prothero:
Quote:
And if the header tells me that Make-Up Effect credits follow and the next credit is a Visual Effect credit this is (at least) ambiguous and therefore should be omitted.

What's ambiguous about "SFX Supervisor"?


There would be nothing ambiguous about a SFX-Supervisor if it was within a Special- and/or Visual Effects group.
But here it is within a Make-Up Group.

If (as a hypothetical example) he was credited within this group as "Director" would you enter him as Director?

Hopefully not.

But instead of questioning the ambiguity, please answer my questions:
Quote:
From the context it becomes quite clear that what is actually meant is SFX - Make-Up Supervisor.
Why would I want to enter this with a completely different job-descriptor?
Just to have the name listed?  For a job that person has actually never worked in?

You may enter this, because technically you are correct, but what would be the point?


EDIT:
Another not so hypothetical example:
Quite often you find within a Visual Effects group Producer credits without the leading "VFX" (or equivalents). Following your logic they are supposed to be entered as "Producers" (below a Company Group Divider, of course) then?

Sorry, but your approach leads to absurd consequences.
It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


Registrant since 05/22/2003
 Last edited: by Lewis_Prothero
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorscotthm
Registered: March 20, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
United States Posts: 2,850
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting Lewis_Prothero:
Quote:
There would be nothing ambiguous about a SFX-Supervisor if it was within a Special- and/or Visual Effects group.
But here it is within a Make-Up Group.

That's your imagination.  I don't see a "Make-Up Group" listed anywhere.  I see a SFX Make-up credit attributed to a company.  I'll readily agree that the SFX Make-up credit is not contributable because it's a company credit.

---------------
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
Strength Through Unity
Registered: May 19, 2007
Reputation: Superior Rating
Germany Posts: 6,730
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting scotthm:
Quote:
Quoting Lewis_Prothero:
Quote:
There would be nothing ambiguous about a SFX-Supervisor if it was within a Special- and/or Visual Effects group.
But here it is within a Make-Up Group.

That's your imagination.  I don't see a "Make-Up Group" listed anywhere.  I see a SFX Make-up credit attributed to a company.  I'll readily agree that the SFX Make-up credit is not contributable because it's a company credit.

---------------


Now did you even take a look at the picture kindly provided by CubbyUps?
Or are you simply trying to deny the obvious?

Right above the credit for Mr. Berger you will find the name of his company listed as "SFX-Make-up by KNB EFX Group, Inc.". Otherwise the Divider that you wanted to enter wouldn't make sense at all.

My Imagination ... man if you are running out of arguments simply say so.

In the meantime you may want to answer my still unanswered questions:

Quote:
  • If (as a hypothetical example) he was credited within this group as "Director" would you enter him as Director?


  • Hopefully not.

    From the context it becomes quite clear that what is actually meant is SFX - Make-Up Supervisor.
  • Why would I want to enter this with a completely different job-descriptor?

  • Just to have the name listed?

  • For a job that person has actually never worked in?


  • You may enter this, because technically you are correct, but what would be the point?



  • Another not so hypothetical example:
    Quite often you find within a Visual Effects group Producer credits without the leading "VFX" (or equivalents).
  • Following your logic they are supposed to be entered as "Producers" (below a Company Group Divider, of course) then?


  • For making it a bit easier to find them I have highlighted them with a bulleted list.
    It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
    But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


    Registrant since 05/22/2003
     Last edited: by Lewis_Prothero
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorscotthm
    Registered: March 20, 2007
    Reputation: Great Rating
    United States Posts: 2,850
    Posted:
    PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
    Quoting Lewis_Prothero:
    Quote:
    Now did you even take a look at the picture kindly provided by CubbyUps?
    Or are you simply trying to deny the obvious?

    Of course, and in fact that is the only source I'm using in this discussion.


    Quote:
    Right above the credit for Mr. Berger you will find the name of his company listed as "SFX-Make-up by KNB EFX Group, Inc.". Otherwise the Divider that you wanted to enter wouldn't make sense at all.

    Where on that screenshot does it make an association between Mr. Berger and KNB EFX Group, Inc.?  Nowhere.

    As for a group divider, I surely wouldn't enter one based on the credits shown in the first post.

    ---------------
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
    Strength Through Unity
    Registered: May 19, 2007
    Reputation: Superior Rating
    Germany Posts: 6,730
    Posted:
    PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
    OK, since you are trying to deny the obvious:

    KNB is the acronym for Kurtzman, Nicotero and Berger the owners of the company.
    For further info you may want to check the link kindly provided by Rizor (Link)

    BTW you still haven't answered my questions.
    It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
    But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


    Registrant since 05/22/2003
        Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2 3 4  Previous   Next