If you're not open to learning why do you ask questions?

I have learned, that you follow the majority decision from a poll or thread and then in a year or 2 people flip-flop and stick in your face. So I follow the rules the way I see them now.

Quoting scotthm:

Quote:
Quoting ateo357:

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the only requirement is that the crew role is listed in the crew credit grid, which it is as Visual Effects.

But in CharlieM's example above ("Visual Effects by ABC") that's a company credit, not an individual credit.

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And per the header - It is a group of names that are credited for VFX for that company. Now if they would've added a secondary crew role for each name that would be different, but the only credit I see is Visual Effects by.

Quoting ateo357:

Quote:
And per the header - It is a group of names that are credited for VFX for that company.

...the only credit I see is Visual Effects by.

Immediately after the "by" do you see the name of a company or a person?  A company.

If you ignore the company credit do you see any credits for the crew?  If not then they don't meet the "other listing requirements" required by the rules.

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Quoting scotthm:

Quote:
Quoting ateo357:

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let's make it easy for everyone.
to be in the credit roll of a film you need a job discription.
so what is the job discription for these 6 names?

Visual Effects by NEW DEAL STUDIOS
IAN HUNTER                    DAVID SANGER          TIMOTHY E. ANGULO
RICHARD O. HELMER        JOHN CAZIN              SCOTT BEVERLY

There is no job description, just a list of New Deal Studios employees.  Ian Hunter was the supervisor, David, Timothy and Richard did SFX, John was the office manager and Scott swept the floors.

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and you know that because you worked with Scott?

From a research

Ian Hunter Visual Effects Supervisor
David Sanger  Visual Effects Producer
Timothy E. Angulo  Miniature Director of Photography
Richard O. Helmer Special Effects Supervisor (looks like a pyrotechnics specialist)
John Cazin Special Effects Supervisor
Scott Beverly Mechanical Effects Supervisor

What about the other 12 people under that header

Patrick Dunn-Baker Digital Set Designer
Emily Kwong Digital Set Designer
Jeffrey Jasper Digital Effects Supervisor
Katie Linahon Production Coordinator
Kevin McTurk Model maker
Steve Newburn Key Model maker
Kain Suwannaphin Visual Effects Artist

What About the others?

Quoting CharlieM:

Quote:
From a research

Ian Hunter Visual Effects Supervisor
David Sanger  Visual Effects Producer
Timothy E. Angulo  Miniature Director of Photography
Richard O. Helmer Special Effects Supervisor (looks like a pyrotechnics specialist)
John Cazin Special Effects Supervisor
Scott Beverly Mechanical Effects Supervisor

What about the other 12 people under that header

Patrick Dunn-Baker Digital Set Designer
Emily Kwong Digital Set Designer
Jeffrey Jasper Digital Effects Supervisor
Katie Linahon Production Coordinator
Kevin McTurk Model maker
Steve Newburn Key Model maker
Kain Suwannaphin Visual Effects Artist

What About the others?

I'm possibly being dumb here - but everything above IS 'Visual Effects'. Everyone in this team was working towards creating the 'visual effects' for the film in question.
Maybe the makers didn't feel they needed to list each job individually? Maybe they felt that the heading of 'Visual Effects by...' was enough to show what these people did?

Either way, I would (and have - and will continue to do so) include these people. They are credited with working on the 'visual effects' for this movie. 'Visual Effects' is a valid entry according to the rules. So they should be included.

Here's part of my reasoning:

Songwriter. With the arguments the following could NOT be included (FICTIONAL example):
"Suddenly" (header)
Alain Boublil and Claude-Michel Schonberg

Neither would:
"Suddenly" (header)
Music by Alain Boublil (INCLUDED)
Lyrics by Claude-Michel Schonberg (NOT ALLOWED).

Neither would THIS!:
"Suddenly" (header)
Music and Lyrcs by Alain Boublil and Claude-Michel Schonberg.

If you follow the rules to the letter, THIS is the ONLY way to get this song into the crew list:
Neither would:
"Suddenly" (header)
Songwriters: Alain Boublil and Claude-Michel Schonberg.

This is because the only guideline we're given is that it's the 'original songwriters'. No roles are listed to determined what IS or isn't included. So, taken exactly as written, the only acceptable entry is someone credited with 'songwriter'.
Obviously, that is not the intention of the rules.

To leave a song out that was written exclusively for the film Les Miserables just because of job description would have been ridiculous. A little common sense is required in my opinion. This is an original song and the people listed under it are the writers of said song - therefore, they should get included.

This is the logic I employ with all crew. If the 'divider' includes a job title then the people under that did that role (unless credited with a specific role).
If the Company name includes Visual Effects (or whatever) and a list of people, then for ease of use, those people did that job. To make it more complicated seems counter-productive and unnecessarily complicated, in my opinion.

Quoting Pantheon:

Quote:
Here's part of my reasoning:

Songwriter. With the arguments the following could NOT be included (FICTIONAL example):
"Suddenly" (header)
Alain Boublil and Claude-Michel Schonberg

Neither would:
"Suddenly" (header)
Music by Alain Boublil (INCLUDED)
Lyrics by Claude-Michel Schonberg (NOT ALLOWED).

Neither would THIS!:
"Suddenly" (header)
Music and Lyrcs by Alain Boublil and Claude-Michel Schonberg.

If you follow the rules to the letter, THIS is the ONLY way to get this song into the crew list:
Neither would:
"Suddenly" (header)
Songwriters: Alain Boublil and Claude-Michel Schonberg.

This is because the only guideline we're given is that it's the 'original songwriters'. No roles are listed to determined what IS or isn't included. So, taken exactly as written, the only acceptable entry is someone credited with 'songwriter'.

Quite the contrary.  The "Credited As" field in the crew table is blank for songwriters, so there is more leeway for what is allowed, not less.  All we have to make sure of is that they wrote an "original song" for the film.  The exact form of the credit is flexible.

By the way, as an aside, using group headers for song titles is a terrible idea because group headers in the crew are only allowed to head "crew teams", and many songs are written by a single person.  Thus we cannot currently both follow the rules and uniformly apply group headers to all song titles.

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I think this actually has a lot to do with this thread http://www.invelos.com/Forums.aspx?task=viewtopic&topicID=725071

Because it really boils down to do whether the company group header information is inherited by the crew within it.

Many of us had the opinion that it did not so a company with a header of "Additional Visual Effects By" is able to be credited because "Additional" is not automatically assumed to be part of the crew rules within the group (Many were in the opposite camp).  That being said, that means that the group header should not have any influence on the crew role.  We cannot pick and choose what parts of the company header influences the crew roles, it is either it does or it doesn't.  I don't think it does, so I don't think they should be credited.

Quote:

Also use Group dividers for crew teams, included only if the crew meets the other listing requirements.

The above clarification in the divider section also tells me that the divider should only be entered if the crew meets the requirements.  Which is a proper role, the ability to even create the company divider is dependent on the crew roles within the company credits.  So in the way I see it the company group divider can have no influence on the crew within it, since the existence of the divider depends the crew being in appropriate roles.

So the credited roles must stand on their own in order for us to even group them.

So in this case since the roles of these example do not stand on their own on the crew chart we cannot add the company group divider and therefore the crew within it cannot inherit the company divider attributes.  A "Chicken and the egg" scenario.