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For Your Eyes Only
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorGSyren
Profiling since 2001
Registered: March 14, 2007
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One songwriter does not constitute a group.
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Kathy:
Quote:
I believe this data is clearly addressed in the rules:

"Dividers allow the segregation of cast and crew into logical groupings. Wherever possible, these groupings should mirror the film credits."

A single person can't be segregated into logical groupings.  Add to that, the rest of the rule...

•Use Episode dividers for TV show episodes, distinct films, or other logical episodic distinction. Also use episode dividers for full cast division, such as "Japanese Voices".
•Use Group dividers to designate cast grouped in the credits such as "Soldiers" or "Additional Cast".
•"Cast", "In order of appearance" or other similar headers at the start of the credits should not be entered.
•Also use Group dividers for crew teams, included only if the crew meets the other listing requirements.
•Groups should be ended with a "Group End" type divider, unless the next entry begins a new group. Do not add a group end divider at the end of the cast, or at the end of a crew section.

...which tells us to use Group dividers for crew teams, and the rule is indeed clear.  Dividers can be used for a team of song writers, but not for a single song writer.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCubbyUps
Registered: March 14, 2007
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I think the one thing to look at is that most times films have many songs listed in the end credits. Original and not.
Even if we only profile one song writer for one song, this one song is listed among many.

So, in my mind, the divider adds value since we can know what song they wrote without resorting to actually playing the disc and looking at the actual credit.

So in a way, the use of dividers is per the rules because the songs are presented in groups in the credits. It's just that we ignore the others. But just because we ignore them doesn't mean that the other songs disappear from the actual film.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorscotthm
Registered: March 20, 2007
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Quoting CubbyUps:
Quote:
So, in my mind, the divider adds value...

And so it's entirely appropriate that you should want to use them that way in your local database.

Quote:
So in a way, the use of dividers is per the rules because the songs are presented in groups in the credits.

If you've read the rule you know that the key is whether or not a "crew team" is involved.  No team (or company), no group divider.

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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCubbyUps
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While there may be only one song writer listed for a song, the songs themselves are separated into groups. Thus the credit belongs to a group. That's the point.

As Kathy pointed out from the rules.
""Dividers allow the segregation of cast and crew into logical groupings. Wherever possible, these groupings should mirror the film credits."

Notice that it doesn't require multiple people to be credited, just that there be logical groupings. And since the filmmakers decided to list the songs into groups by song titles it meets the criteria of a group. For, if the filmmakers didn't care they could have just listed all the song writers together.

That's why I think that the divider is per the rules in regards to Groups.

In regards to keeping it local, that creates problems for those doing that. Either they have to edit out local dividers each time they want to contribute crew updates or just not contribute anymore.

Honestly, if I had most of my profiles with local dividers I know that I wouldn't bother editing each profile just to contribute a crew update.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorscotthm
Registered: March 20, 2007
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Quoting CubbyUps:
Quote:
While there may be only one song writer listed for a song, the songs themselves are separated into groups. Thus the credit belongs to a group. That's the point.

No, credits always belong to individuals, and within the crew section group headers are allowed for company names and crew teams.  No other options are mentioned in the rules.


Quote:
As Kathy pointed out from the rules.
""Dividers allow the segregation of cast and crew into logical groupings. Wherever possible, these groupings should mirror the film credits."

Yes, she conveniently omitted the bullet points below that clarified the usage.  I'd also ask why limit group dividers only to songwriter "groups"?  Why not apply them to writing groups, or editing groups, etc.?  Are we not supposed to aim for consistency in our contributions to the online database?


Quote:
Notice that it doesn't require multiple people to be credited, just that there be logical groupings.

Yes it does, when it clarifies that they are to be used for "crew teams", which everyone in favor of using group dividers for song titles conveniently ignores.

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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCubbyUps
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That is your interpretation of the rules.

And speaking of crew teams, how come I don't see anyone contribution crew with group dividers for every job description?
For example the film Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure has two writers, two executive producers, three producers, two film editors, six sound editors and three re-recording mixers.

If we were to follow the rules to a 'T' then all of them would get group dividers. That is what you're saying, right?

Getting back to the song writers, what about when multiple song writers are credited for multiple songs. According to you they wouldn't get a divider either, just lumped together in one long list. Thus making the multiple song writers to appear to write only one song.

But you know what, I will continue to contribute group dividers for song writers. After all this comes down to just opinions. I'll let the voters and screeners decide.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorscotthm
Registered: March 20, 2007
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Quoting CubbyUps:
Quote:
And speaking of crew teams, how come I don't see anyone contribution crew with group dividers for every job description?

Isn't that what I asked you?  Why aren't you consistent with the way you contribute crew data?


Quote:
But you know what, I will continue to contribute group dividers for song writers.

I never had a doubt about that.

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 Last edited: by scotthm
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCubbyUps
Registered: March 14, 2007
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Perhaps I'll follow your suggestion and contribute a profile as you suggest. Something tells me that the voters will turn it down.

Why isn't everyone consistent in the way they do profiles, period? Easy, because each person interprets the rules differently. The rules really need to be written better and is really in need of being updated. That alone, may help some.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKathy
Registered: May 29, 2007
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Quoting scotthm:
Quote:


Quote:
As Kathy pointed out from the rules.
""Dividers allow the segregation of cast and crew into logical groupings. Wherever possible, these groupings should mirror the film credits."

Yes, she conveniently omitted the bullet points below that clarified the usage.  I'd also ask why limit group dividers only to songwriter "groups"?  Why not apply them to writing groups, or editing groups, etc.?  Are we not supposed to aim for consistency in our contributions to the online database?


I'm sorry but I didn't think the additional data was relevant to the discussion at hand.

Here are the bullets quoted above:
•Use Episode dividers for TV show episodes, distinct films, or other logical episodic distinction. Also use episode dividers for full cast division, such as "Japanese Voices".
•Use Group dividers to designate cast grouped in the credits such as "Soldiers" or "Additional Cast".
•"Cast", "In order of appearance" or other similar headers at the start of the credits should not be entered.
•Also use Group dividers for crew teams, included only if the crew meets the other listing requirements.
•Groups should be ended with a "Group End" type divider, unless the next entry begins a new group. Do not add a group end divider at the end of the cast, or at the end of a crew section.

We are discussing Crew data as it relates to song writer dividers. Bullet three is the only one that has anything to do with the topic being discussed.

Bullet one: TV episodes, distinct films, other episodic distiction and Cast: Not relevant to the subject at hand.
Bullet two: Cast grouping: Not relevant to the subject at hand.
Bullet three: See below for my rationale in not including this in my post.
Bullet four: Group end dividers - no explanation needed.

Now, back to the third bullet and why I did not feel it needed to be addressed.

Note carefully the first word: "Also". This means in addition to the rule that I quoted in my post.

That word is important since invelos is saying that dividers should ALSO be used for "Group teams". Since we are discussing a single credit, this bullet is not relevant to the subject at hand.

I know that a single person is not a group. But, according to Ken, the rules can not be written to cover every situation.

If one is to follow the logic of some members, if a film has multiple directors, only one can be allowed to be credited in profiler.

The Crew chart is quite clear on the matter. "Director" or "Directed By" are the only credits allowed. There is nothing that allows for the occasion film to have multiple directors.

Multiple directors do get credited as should the use of dividers for a single song writer. Omission of either shouldn't be based on rules that, as Ken notes, can not cover every situation.

Edit: Just so everyone is clear on my position,  I don't ever recall contributing dividers for song writers. But, I have voted "yes" on those that do and I will continue to do so because I believe this is clearly allowed by invelos' rules.
 Last edited: by Kathy
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorscotthm
Registered: March 20, 2007
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Quoting Kathy:
Quote:
Note carefully the first word: "Also". This means in addition to the rule that I quoted in my post.

That word is important since invelos is saying that dividers should ALSO be used for "Group teams".

Incorrect.  "Group teams" is mentioned nowhere in the rules.

The phrase, "Dividers allow the segregation of cast and crew into logical groupings. Wherever possible, these groupings should mirror the film credits." tells us that we may use dividers and why, and the bullet points give us specific examples of how to use dividers, and as they pertain to group dividers specifically they mention two ways to use them:
Quote:
•Use Group dividers to designate cast grouped in the credits such as "Soldiers" or "Additional Cast".
•Also use Group dividers for crew teams, included only if the crew meets the other listing requirements.

The reason for "also" then becomes quite clear.  We may use group dividers for cast grouping, and also for crew teams.  It's very clear and simple unless one is looking for an excuse to violate these rules.

Additionally, if one were to accept your interpretation of the divider rules there is no reason to avoid using dividers for any grouping of crew.  It may in fact be advantageous for some to group writers under group dividers to differentiate OMB sources, e.g. "Based on a Play by", yet no one does this.  Why should song writers be afforded special treatment using this very generic rule?

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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCubbyUps
Registered: March 14, 2007
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So you're saying that when filmmakers separate songs into groups that they are not "logical groupings"?

And doesn't the use of dividers for song writers meet the criteria of the rules in regards to "these groupings should mirror the film credits."? Since the song writer is listed under the title of the song the use of a divider mirrors the way it appears in the film credits. Not using the divider goes against this, does it not?
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorscotthm
Registered: March 20, 2007
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Quoting CubbyUps:
Quote:
And doesn't the use of dividers for song writers meet the criteria of the rules in regards to "these groupings should mirror the film credits."?

If the song writer is not a member of a "crew team" then certainly not.

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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorCubbyUps
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I disagree, and that is my final word on this.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorateo357
Registered: December 27, 2009
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some people are just to _______ to have a say in anything.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting scotthm:
Quote:
Incorrect.  "Group teams" is mentioned nowhere in the rules.

The phrase, "Dividers allow the segregation of cast and crew into logical groupings. Wherever possible, these groupings should mirror the film credits." tells us that we may use dividers and why, and the bullet points give us specific examples of how to use dividers, and as they pertain to group dividers specifically they mention two ways to use them:
Quote:
•Use Group dividers to designate cast grouped in the credits such as "Soldiers" or "Additional Cast".
•Also use Group dividers for crew teams, included only if the crew meets the other listing requirements.

The reason for "also" then becomes quite clear.  We may use group dividers for cast grouping, and also for crew teams.  It's very clear and simple unless one is looking for an excuse to violate these rules.

Thanks for saving me the effort, this is exactly correct.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
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