All kicked on back somewhere around page 17. I was quite comfortable with the next few pages expressing concerns about some Muslim (over) reaction to certain events - I think that Islamic reaction to some recent events (e.g. cartoons involving Muhammed and controversial films) is a major overreaction, but I thought that about the Christian reaction to Jerry Springer the Opera (albeit to a lesser extent). But I think that the amount of balance in posts on the subject has been waning since then and, intended or otherwise, makes the last few pages read like something really quite unpleasant.

Quote:
Taliban Militants Reportedly Stone to Death Pakistani Couple Who Committed Adultery

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,345088,00.html

Sharia Court in Pakistan -- we want this "non-confrontational" system here?

This is EXACTLY the kind of thing that I mean. Whilst the content is true, it can be very misleading. For me, using a killing carried out by a terrorist-supporting group known for their extreme interpretation of Sharia law in a marginalised area of a country as an example of why Sharia law is evil is pretty unrepresentative. For me (and please remember that I have never lived more than 30 miles from a site that has been subjected terrorist activity within my lifetime), these kind of arguments are akin to applying IRA ideal to all Catholics. That's what I'm talking about when I likened some of what I read to the tabloid (i.e. unrepresentative and sensationalist).

The truth is that the majority of Muslims in the UK do not want to see stonings. A significant number CHOOSE not wear the hijab. 'Honour killings' are routinely condemned by the Muslim Council of Britain. Principals of Sharia law are being voluntarily applied in some areas of the UK very successfully. Despite this, I see many examples of the last few pages where examples are taken from more extreme cases of Islamic cultural implementations around the world and used as an argument applied within European countries. For example:

Quote:
The notion that too much is being made of the strong elements of totalitarianism, misogynism, and fascism that are a major part of modern Islamic culture and religion as it is predominantly practiced. The fact is that religion and culture are very closely linked in many Muslim nations (more so than they are elsewhere particularly in the west when the "popular" culture is often decidedly at odds with most religious traditions)  -- and the predominant application of that culture is a very similar across the many Muslim countries of the world.

Whilst this may also be true, it bears little relevance to Islam in the UK. I suspect this to be the case in many other countries. It concerns me to see arguments like this being laid side by side with statements like "this will only get worse unless the Europeans decide to take back their continent" - it conjures up chilling images of late 30s Germany or modern day Zimbabwe in my mind.

Seeing as I seem to have started a discussion on law, I suppose I best address it. Much of what is being asked for by Muslim communities is not REPLACING UK law as a couple of responses have implied. It would sit on top of a law in the same way as state laws sit on top of federal laws. Local councils can already do this to some extent with their own local laws (e.g. no-alcohol-zones). I am subject to additional laws because of a job I once held. Some laws also apply only to people in specified situations. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't have any problem with this concept in principal as some seem to. Of course, my views on specific laws may be different.


In closing, I'd like to add that as someone who lives in a multi-cultural society in a city with many Muslims, I can say that I'm far more concerned over the BNP (British National Party) than I am about the various Muslim communities. That's one of the reasons the outward appearance of the end of this tread makes me jumpy.

Stuart

Quoting skipnet50:

Quote:
America has been known for many years as the great melting pot and we are the richer for it, but today we have many people who wish to retain their identity and remain "separate" instead of contributing to the whole, this is not just the territory of the muslims, there are others as well.

[...]

Hmm...

Yet,  "The first-ever, nationwide, random sample survey of Muslim Americans finds them to be largely assimilated, happy with their lives, and moderate with respect to many of the issues that have divided Muslims and Westerners around the world."

"...although many Muslims are relative newcomers to the U.S., they are highly assimilated into American society. On balance, they believe that Muslims coming to the U.S. should try and adopt American customs, rather than trying to remain distinct from the larger society. "

Besides,
"Muslim Americans reject Islamic extremism by larger margins than do Muslim minorities in Western European countries..."



Here is the full quote:

Quote:
Muslim Americans: Middle Class and Mostly Mainstream

May 22, 2007

The first-ever, nationwide, random sample survey of Muslim Americans finds them to be largely assimilated, happy with their lives, and moderate with respect to many of the issues that have divided Muslims and Westerners around the world.

The Pew Research Center conducted more than 55,000 interviews to obtain a national sample of 1,050 Muslims living in the United States. Interviews were conducted in English, Arabic, Farsi and Urdu. The resulting study, which draws on Pew's survey research among Muslims around the world, finds that Muslim Americans are a highly diverse population, one largely composed of immigrants. Nonetheless, they are decidedly American in their outlook, values and attitudes. This belief is reflected in Muslim American income and education levels, which generally mirror those of the public.

Key findings include:

    * Overall, Muslim Americans have a generally positive view of the larger society. Most say their communities are excellent or good places to live.
    * A large majority of Muslim Americans believe that hard work pays off in this society. Fully 71% agree that most people who want to get ahead in the United States can make it if they are willing to work hard.
    * The survey shows that although many Muslims are relative newcomers to the U.S., they are highly assimilated into American society. On balance, they believe that Muslims coming to the U.S. should try and adopt American customs, rather than trying to remain distinct from the larger society. And by nearly two-to-one (63%-32%) Muslim Americans do not see a conflict between being a devout Muslim and living in a modern society.
    * Roughly two-thirds (65%) of adult Muslims in the U.S. were born elsewhere. A relatively large proportion of Muslim immigrants are from Arab countries, but many also come from Pakistan and other South Asian countries. Among native-born Muslims, roughly half are African American (20% of U.S. Muslims overall), many of whom are converts to Islam.


    * Based on data from this survey, along with available Census Bureau data on immigrants' nativity and nationality, the Pew Research Center estimates the total population of Muslims in the United States at 2.35 million.
    * Muslim Americans reject Islamic extremism by larger margins than do Muslim minorities in Western European countries. However, there is somewhat more acceptance of Islamic extremism in some segments of the U.S. Muslim public than others. Fewer native-born African American Muslims than others completely condemn al Qaeda. In addition, younger Muslims in the U.S. are much more likely than older Muslim Americans to say that suicide bombing in the defense of Islam can be at least sometimes justified. Nonetheless, absolute levels of support for Islamic extremism among Muslim Americans are quite low, especially when compared with Muslims around the world.
    * A majority of Muslim Americans (53%) say it has become more difficult to be a Muslim in the United States since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Most also believe that the government "singles out" Muslims for increased surveillance and monitoring.
    * Relatively few Muslim Americans believe the U.S.-led war on terror is a sincere effort to reduce terrorism, and many doubt that Arabs were responsible for the 9/11 attacks. Just 40% of Muslim Americans say groups of Arabs carried out those attacks.

Download Complete Report (PDF)

Below are a few key elements of the quote:

Quote:
Relatively few Muslim Americans believe the U.S.-led war on terror is a sincere effort to reduce terrorism, and many doubt that Arabs were responsible for the 9/11 attacks. Just 40% of Muslim Americans say groups of Arabs carried out those attacks.

-----

In addition, younger Muslims in the U.S. are much more likely than older Muslim Americans to say that suicide bombing in the defense of Islam can be at least sometimes justified. Nonetheless, absolute levels of support for Islamic extremism among Muslim Americans are quite low, especially when compared with Muslims around the world.

From news reports I remember about this poll I think the % of young Muslims suggesting suicide bombing was ok in some cases was 25%. A high number to say the least. The conclusive line which states "when compared with Muslims around the world" is also telling. As is the line about

Quote:
"Muslim Americans reject Islamic extremism by larger margins than do Muslim minorities in Western European countries..."

Since this discussion was centered on Europe primarily I think that's worth pointing out.

Brian

Quoting mlr:

Quote:
Stuart, only thing that’s worrying to me is if you give credence to the ‘moderate’ part of Sharia Law, how long will it take before the nasty parts of the law being implemented.

Someone's answer to that question is going to be based upon how much faith they have in the European people. My answer is "long enough not to worry about it for a long time". I'm disappointed that you have so little faith in us.

Quoting mlr:

Quote:

And you are right in being worried about the BNP, their agenda is deplorable but keep on giving your British/European-way of life away and you will drive more ‘moderates’ to them.

In general I think Europe/US & other western democracies have become lazy & too complacent, you have a voice why not use them with your votes, it’s shocking to hear on how low some of your returns are – that said it looks like US might just turn it this year.

In the UK, some people are using their votes. We have a few Muslim members of parliament and many local councillors - to my knowledge, none of them are asking for anything unreasonable by almost any standards. We have 48 BNP councillors, who are openly campaigning for the 'voluntary' deportation of non-whites. If you were in my situation, which would concern you more?

As for low turnouts, I'm sure that there are many explanations, but my feeling is simply that the current political structure is woefully inadequate for modern needs, and the setup is such that people are unable to vote for their beliefs. If you're presented with a choice of voting for two people for whom you only agree with 1/3 of their policies and disagree with 2/3, which do you vote for? Even if you vote for an independent with whom you largely agree and they get it, the three-line-whip voting (voting to party orders (or else)) renders their vote virtually worthless.

Stuart

Stuart,

The thing I find most interesting about your last post is that you attack the current political system in the UK (and Europe) rather than present and defend your own views.  It's as though you honestly believe that "Sharia Law" (forgive the paraphrase but I think that is what you called it) is better for everyone the world over.

I disagree with you.

Quoting bbursiek:

Quote:
Imam's daughter in hiding after her conversion to Christianity sparked death threats

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=500087

This is a December 2007 story from the British Daily Mail

note this chestnut:

Quote:
A study this year found that 36 per cent of British Muslims between 16 and 24 believe those who convert to another religion should be punished by death.

Still think I'm being unfair and sensationalist?

You might not be, but the Daily Mail certainly is! This is after all the paper that openly supported the Nazi party pre-war. And just recently a leaked email has revealed they were offering people £100 to tell them horror stories about hiring immigrants.

If I wanted to read a fair and balanced article about anything racial, there's no way I'd pick up the Daily Mail.

“…little faith in us…” Sorry not much, to give you some examples:

1. French Politician’s & Media trying to justify/dismissing the Riots in France – Not saying people shouldn’t stand up for their rights but over-looking the riot violence, that’s just not right. (Sorry if I have it wrong, I’m basing my facts on what was reported here via our news channels including Sky, BBC & CNN)
2. Pulling that Film from Theatres
3. Inviting Mugabe to Talks even though EU & US black listed him while condemning SA for its Silent Diplomacy, granted that’s it is a failed policy.
(I know the AU threatened to Boycott the talks had he not been invited but here EU should have stood firm and then called it off at this point Africa need Europe more that the other way around, by giving in you have taught our leaders that your Human Rights principals are moveable.)

Young democracies are looking at you guys (they might not admit it) but if anything bad happens here our leaders are quick too point out that things aren’t so bad …do you see this or that happing in America or Europe…

Difference in style by paper:
Times
Max Mosley faces calls to quit as Formula One chief after ‘Nazi ...
Max Mosley denies Nazi claims in orgy scandal
Daily Mail
Formula One boss Max Mosley 'exposed as sadomasochist in Nazi orgy with five prostitutes'
Max Mosley turns on BMW and Mercedes over their role in WWII as 'Nazi orgy' row escalates