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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | Martian:
Please, if you feel slighted then show me in the Rules where your position is supported or even implied. I don't believe you can, I believe you are creating your own interpretation (and that's fine, I might even agree) but what you are saying definitively is outside of the rules, hence my term of twisting said Rules. You clearly are not operating within them. on this one. You are allowing yourself to INTERPRET the data, instead of following the data...why...who knows...who really cares.This kind of thing is done frequently, this is why we have the constant threads about parsing this name or that name, some believe that they have the answers to parsing a given name, usually with no backup support, why does this happen, I don't know, is it important precisely how a name is parsed...no. When it comes right down to it for Profiler purposes what is the difference between H/B/C and H//BC...answer NONE, the only mistake was that we didn't anticipate the issue and ken has only sort of fixed it, as long as the data is entered the same way then it makes NO DIFFERENCE, but we have users who for whatever reason force culture into it. This isn't much different, you move outside of the Rules to allow words and language to create your interpretation outside of the Rules. Does it REALLY make any difference....NO!, it doesn't. We all have the ability to interpret the data anyway we choose locally. Why must we have these insane discussions, and I do mean INSANE, where I will even say i see your point and might even agree with it, while my position is to be belittled and insulted, you don't say I see where your coming from Skip...and we are supposed to be able to have a rational discussion on that basis...never happens and then North launches a personal insult. Excuse me everyone here needs a visit from nurse Ratched and the orderlies, you're all NUTS; and I don't support going outside of the Rules, that is for YOUR local. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | At North:
You are correct I AM RIGHT. Because I am following the data and the Rules, I don't allow myself to interpret data for Contribution. The Rules do not allow for word usage or language to create an interpretation. Yet that is precisely what you want to do. I have asked both you and Martian to show it to me in the Rules, Kathy too. And all that I get is more wordplay which the Rules do NOT provide for. So...I have given you many points to deal with, I have answered yours, you have NOT made any attempt to answer mine. You have been insulting on at least one post, but you have not answered the simple statements that it is not within the Rules, despite your claims, the two dividers are treated buy the filmmakers in precisely the same manner, there is NO difference, except for words and language and the Rules don't provide for that. If the two dividers had some difference in font size, font, perhaps even a different shade of gray then you would have an argument, but there is none, and the Rules do not support or imply that your and Martians argument is any sense valid. Can you answer that, if you can, I will listen and maybe you can persuade me. But I don't accept inventions of someone's mind outside of the rules, I see your argument I understand your argument and to some degree I agree with it, but that doesn't change the FACT that it is outside of the Rules and no one has shown mwe otherwise and your insulting remark did absolutely nothing to do so. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | The Martian had it closer agree to disagree. But given that I answered his comments and he has not answered mine, that only further convinces me that I AM RIGHT, he simply has no argument to present, and i have countered his whether he likes it or not. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| Registered: May 26, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 599 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Prof. Kingsfield: Quote: At North:
You are correct I AM RIGHT. Because I am following the data and the Rules, I don't allow myself to interpret data for Contribution. The Rules do not allow for word usage or language to create an interpretation. Yet that is precisely what you want to do. I have asked both you and Martian to show it to me in the Rules, Kathy too. And all that I get is more wordplay which the Rules do NOT provide for. So...I have given you many points to deal with, I have answered yours, you have NOT made any attempt to answer mine. You have been insulting on at least one post, but you have not answered the simple statements that it is not within the Rules, despite your claims, the two dividers are treated buy the filmmakers in precisely the same manner, there is NO difference, except for words and language and the Rules don't provide for that. If the two dividers had some difference in font size, font, perhaps even a different shade of gray then you would have an argument, but there is none, and the Rules do not support or imply that your and Martians argument is any sense valid. Can you answer that, if you can, I will listen and maybe you can persuade me. But I don't accept inventions of someone's mind outside of the rules, I see your argument I understand your argument and to some degree I agree with it, but that doesn't change the FACT that it is outside of the Rules and no one has shown mwe otherwise and your insulting remark did absolutely nothing to do so. Can I ask you a question Skip, have you seen this movie? The reason I ask, is because, yes, you are correct as to the way the rule is written. But if you've seen the film, the 6 names below ARE his crew. The names that follow those 6 are the remainder of 617 squadron. I know this for fact as I've study this military attack many times, military history being one of my oldest hobbies. To do it the way the rules are written, presents a problem which will have to be rectified eventually when Ken is presented with it and he makes the common sense decision, to do it as Pete and Unicus have presented. Although, I would do it this way... Members of 617 SquadronWing Commander Guy Gibson ... Richard Todd His CrewFlt/Lt. R. D. Trevor-Roper ... Brewster Mason Flt/Lt. R.E.G. Hutchison ... Tony Doonan Flying/Off. F.M. Spafford ... Nigel Stock Flt/Lt. A.T. Taerum ... Brian Nissen Flt/Sgt. J. Pulford ... Robert Shaw Plt/Off. G.A. Deering ... Peter Assinder Remainder of 617 Squadron...The rest of the squadron listed in credits |
| Registered: May 20, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 2,934 |
| Posted: | | | | Until ken says otherwise, this is no different than Minority Report (Accepted twice standard and BD) or A.I. Which is also accepted.
Until Ken comes up with a programming solution, I will continue to do it the way Ken suggested (never stated as fact as far as I know).
The crew is part of the squadron, and should be shown credited that way. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | Duh. I knew that, Whether or not i have seen the movie is not relevant, fact is , yes. Richard Todd is one of my favorite actors of the 1950s period. That does n't change anything, the Rules are what they are for Contribution and they do NT make any provision for this sort of interpretation, absolutely NONE. I don't care about your, north or even The martian's belief of interpreting the data. the Rules do not permit it, for contribution, Locally I don't care.
You like everyone else present your argument while refusing to answer mine...because you can't, this is the normal state of affairs in profiler. Now Antares you have admitted that I am correct, and your argument has already been taken apart, relative to contributions. As I said, To some degree I even agree with your argument and might even do subdividers locally, but the Rules do not allow me to determine that they are and i would not contribute them and anyone who would....well, what can i say, the Rules are the Rules. Since just the othe day martian was telling me something very similar, he wants free reign to interpret when he wants to. Nope, inconsistent and doesn't work for me. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| Registered: May 29, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,475 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote: Quoting Kathy:
Quote: There have been numerous exceptions to the rules and this might also qualify. Until the nesting situation is resolved, hopefully Ken will weigh in and settle this. Don't get sucked in. No exception is needed as the rules do not require cast headers to be formatted in any specific manner. You first post on this issue was, in my opinion, spot on. It would, however, be nice if Ken weighed in...if for no other reason that to prevent this from spinning out of control. After carefully reading and reading the rules and the postings, it is my opinion that you are correct. I should have trusted my first instinct and stuck with my original posting...so you are correct regarding me being correct! Irregardless, I do hope that this can be discussed in a respectful manner. Input from Ken is always most welcome. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | Now why do I follow the data and not interpret the data. Because too many users over the years have claimed they can tell when something is a typo, or they KNOW what the name IS despite the credits, or because this is the way it is done in their country then this is the way a name is parsed, yet the film was shot in Los Angeles, CALIFORNIA, not Amsterdam or Paris, or even Peking. Now you are telling me based on words and language, that is NOT provided for in the Rules, you KNOW that this is a subdivider And just like the others, the bottom line is it important, is the <gasp> world going to end if you simply follow the rules and NOT your interpretation....NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it won't. The sun will still come up tomorrow...I promise. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | Kathy:
I have been trying to discuss this rationally. Would care to share your wisdom on the rules, I don't see it or you being correct. I have not insulted anyone ...yet, though the same cannot be siad of others. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 2,372 |
| Posted: | | | | Ken has already said it is OK to do as Pete suggests on page 1. That in itself is good enough for me. I would have no trouble voting yes to that. . | | | Last edited: by lyonsden5 |
| Registered: March 15, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 5,459 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Antares: Quote: To do it the way the rules are written, presents a problem which will have to be rectified eventually when Ken is presented with it and he makes the common sense decision, to do it as Pete and Unicus have presented. I see nothing in the rules that prevent formatting the cast in the way suggested. They have been grouped into logical groupings and they mirror the credits as best as the program will currently allow us. |
| Registered: May 29, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,475 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Prof. Kingsfield: Quote: Kathy:
I have been trying to discuss this rationally. Would care to share your wisdom on the rules, I don't see it or you being correct. I have not insulted anyone ...yet, though the same cannot be siad of others. I don't see the need for anyone to insult another because they are not in agreement. Such behavior is unnecessary and should be given a red arrow so that invelos can take appropriate action. Back to the topic on hand, here is the exact rules which is how I came to my decision: "Dividers Dividers allow the segregation of cast and crew into logical groupings. Wherever possible, these groupings should mirror the film credits. * Use Episode dividers for TV show episodes, distinct films, or other logical episodic distinction. Also use episode dividers for full cast division, such as "Japanese Voices". * Use Group dividers to designate cast grouped in the credits such as "Soldiers" or "Additional Cast". * "Cast", "In order of appearance" or other similar headers at the start of the credits should not be entered. * Also use Group dividers for crew teams, included only if the crew meets the other listing requirements. * Groups should be ended with a "Group End" type divider, unless the next entry begins a new group. Do not add a group end divider at the end of the cast, or at the end of a crew section." | | | Last edited: by Kathy |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | Rick and north:
Once again I ask what is the basis for determining that it is nested...the data....NO. So what is it, the use of language and Words, THAT is not within the Rules. The data actually dictates otherwise. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
| Registered: May 20, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 2,934 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Prof. Kingsfield: Quote: Rick and north:
Once again I ask what is the basis for determining that it is nested...the data....NO. So what is it, the use of language and Words, THAT is not within the Rules. The data actually dictates otherwise. Skip, I don't understand your argument. We use personal and acquired knowledge all the time to enter data. There is nothing directly in the rules concerning parsing of names. We always have question about studios, and other data. If you are telling me, that I can not use personal knowledge (acquired from watching the film) to make a determination of how to properly credit something. That is a position that I have a hard time dealing with. Charlie |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | oops | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 21,610 |
| Posted: | | | | Kathy:
I love it, "logical groupings", is that defined somewhere in the Rules. What exactly is a logical groupings and who decides. Don't ask me, I won't defin4e it for you, though i could. There are according to the credits TWO well-defined dividers, that were handled by the filmmakers in an identical way in every respect, centering on the screen, font siz, font, color of font, all identical. Yet it is said that one is a subset of the other, and it cannot be argued that is true based on data because that is not true, it is argued based on word usage and language neither of which are provided for in the Rules.
Now Kathy with all due respect and I do not mean to insult though this will come off harshly. The only possibility could be under "logical grouping" which is not defined. When did you and the others acquire this abilty to be able to define an undefined term. Without a definition of the term by Ken it is meaningless, kind of like common sense, no two people on the planet will have exactly the same view of common sense. This is why I do not interpret, I follow the data and the Rule and I simply don't see where the rule gives you the ability to create the interpretation you are attempting to rationalize. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!! CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it. Outta here
Billy Video |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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