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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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When is a name right, if it's wrong? |
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| Author |
Message |
| Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 5,734 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting GSyren: Quote:
The end credits are a documentation of who was in the movie and what roles they played. Nothing more. It's hardly of more significance than documentation that's outside of the movie. The credits are an immanent part of the thing that we document. | | | | Don't confuse while the film is playing with when the film is played. [Ken Cole, DVD Profiler Architect] |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 5,734 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting GSyren: Quote:
It's not about any personal idea of correctness. It's about correcting factual errors that can be documented.
If the credits for Star Trek say "Captain Kirk" then that's how it should be in Profiler. Not "James Kirk" or "Captain James Tiberius Kirk". No matter what we know, "Captain Kirk" is not factually incorrect and should not be changed. If, on the other hand, the credit should be misspelled "Captain Kork", then we should be allowed to change it because it is demonstrably an error. The object to be documented can per se not be erroneous. And you already are allowed to modify the existing objective data to whatever you want, just locally. | | | | Don't confuse while the film is playing with when the film is played. [Ken Cole, DVD Profiler Architect] |
| | Registered: February 23, 2009 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 1,580 |
| | Posted: | | | | Interesting discussion going on here. If I summarize correctly:
- We currently use the credits as the only source for spelling names of crew and actors
- Some people are happy with that, some aren't
Does that sum it up in a nutshell? Well, I have a question for people who think the rules are fine the way they are. What do you do when the credits themselves are contradictory? I have a movie in my collection where the director of all people is credited as person A in the westernized opening credits and person B (different spelling) in the Japanese closing credits. How do you handle that?
Credits at times are very sloppily done, especially for foreign releases. So I wonder how we are supposed to deal such credits if they are the be-all end-all? | | | Blu-ray collection
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| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Taro: Quote:
Interesting discussion going on here. If I summarize correctly:
- We currently use the credits as the only source for spelling names of crew and actors
- Some people are happy with that, some aren't
Does that sum it up in a nutshell? Well, I have a question for people who think the rules are fine the way they are. What do you do when the credits themselves are contradictory? I have a movie in my collection where the director of all people is credited as person A in the westernized opening credits and person B (different spelling) in the Japanese closing credits. How do you handle that?
Credits at times are very sloppily done, especially for foreign releases. So I wonder how we are supposed to deal such credits if they are the be-all end-all? The way the rules are written. Credit Director as spelled in Movie A Credit Director as spelled in Movie B Find Proper common name (if possible) and use credited as for proper movie. The person names are going to be fairly easy. The difficult part is the roles. If in the movie they spelled "Charlie" (say written on pub sign in movie) and in the end credits they spell it "Charley", by the rules we credit "Charley". WE have no way to put in the correct name, unless we forgo the credits all together. Charlie |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 3,197 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting GSyren: Quote:
Quoting KinoNiki:
Quote:
Quoting GSyren:
Quote:
It's not an interpretation or someone's personal idea of correctness.
That's where you lose me because that is exactly what it is to me. Even if I have no prior knowledge of the film or series whatsoever, I should still be able to enter the credits exactly as I see them. It's not something I should even have to think about.
Do you seriously mean to say that if I want to enter Marie Liljedahl's role in Eugenie as "Eugenie" rather than "Eugene" that this is an interpretation or my personal idea of correctness? 
So where do you draw the line? I remember a discussion way back where the end credits had mistakenly been switched so they came from another movie altogether. Would you prefer to enter the wrong credits and pretend that they belonged to the movie in question? Do we really want to turn DVD Profiler into End Credits Profiler? I know I don't! My wants are irrelevant, according to the rules I have to enter the credits exactly as they are written (with the exceptions mentioned in the rules, such as all caps). I have no problem following this rule whatsoever for the online and I hope it never changes because then we would start to see real problems. What I then do in my personal db is another matter entirley but in the first case you mention I would probably not change anything since it's a "minor" typo, but for the second I would probably switch the credits to the other movie. For the online I don't know, I guess the verdict of discussion would guide me. | | | | First registered: February 15, 2002 |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 4,641 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting bbbbbb: Quote:
Quoting GSyren:
Quote:
It's not about any personal idea of correctness. It's about correcting factual errors that can be documented.
If the credits for Star Trek say "Captain Kirk" then that's how it should be in Profiler. Not "James Kirk" or "Captain James Tiberius Kirk". No matter what we know, "Captain Kirk" is not factually incorrect and should not be changed. If, on the other hand, the credit should be misspelled "Captain Kork", then we should be allowed to change it because it is demonstrably an error.
The object to be documented can per se not be erroneous. And you already are allowed to modify the existing objective data to whatever you want, just locally. That entirely depends on what you are trying to document. I want to document the roles played as per the movie (which in extension is per the script). If the end credits do not reflect the script, then I consider the script correct, not the credits. | | | My freeware tools for DVD Profiler users.
Gunnar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,197 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Taro: Quote:
Does that sum it up in a nutshell? Well, I have a question for people who think the rules are fine the way they are. What do you do when the credits themselves are contradictory? I have a movie in my collection where the director of all people is credited as person A in the westernized opening credits and person B (different spelling) in the Japanese closing credits. How do you handle that?
Credits at times are very sloppily done, especially for foreign releases. So I wonder how we are supposed to deal such credits if they are the be-all end-all? Since I can't read Japanese I would be forced to use the westernized spelling. But I feel your pain, and if it was a Japanese film in the Japan locality I would probably give more importance to the native credits. | | | | First registered: February 15, 2002 |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,197 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting GSyren: Quote:
I want to document the roles played as per the movie (which in extension is per the script). If the end credits do not reflect the script, then I consider the script correct, not the credits. Nothing is stopping you from doing precisely what you want in your own database. What I don't understand is why you want to impose your standards on everyone else, especially since few seem to agree with them. | | | | First registered: February 15, 2002 |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 1,328 |
| | Posted: | | | | We should just go with screen captures for "as credited" crowds. No arguments about what's correct and exactly as credited. Then perhaps we can use the database for correct names and proper linking.  | | | | My Home Theater |
| | Registered: February 23, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,580 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote:
Quoting Taro:
Quote:
Interesting discussion going on here. If I summarize correctly:
- We currently use the credits as the only source for spelling names of crew and actors
- Some people are happy with that, some aren't
Does that sum it up in a nutshell? Well, I have a question for people who think the rules are fine the way they are. What do you do when the credits themselves are contradictory? I have a movie in my collection where the director of all people is credited as person A in the westernized opening credits and person B (different spelling) in the Japanese closing credits. How do you handle that?
Credits at times are very sloppily done, especially for foreign releases. So I wonder how we are supposed to deal such credits if they are the be-all end-all?
The way the rules are written.
Credit Director as spelled in Movie A
Credit Director as spelled in Movie B
Find Proper common name (if possible) and use credited as for proper movie. The person names are going to be fairly easy.
The difficult part is the roles. If in the movie they spelled "Charlie" (say written on pub sign in movie) and in the end credits they spell it "Charley", by the rules we credit "Charley". WE have no way to put in the correct name, unless we forgo the credits all together.
Charlie Yeah, but what I mean is, in one and the same movie, the director is spelled as (fictional example) : Opening credits: Masamune Ogata Ending credits: Masamune Oogata So which one do I enter? Both? If CLT results show that Ogata is the most commonly occuring. Do I then just enter that or enter Masamune Ogata [Masamune Oogata]? It's still puzzling to me. | | | Blu-ray collection
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| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Taro: Quote:
Quoting CharlieM:
Quote:
Quoting Taro:
Quote:
Interesting discussion going on here. If I summarize correctly:
- We currently use the credits as the only source for spelling names of crew and actors
- Some people are happy with that, some aren't
Does that sum it up in a nutshell? Well, I have a question for people who think the rules are fine the way they are. What do you do when the credits themselves are contradictory? I have a movie in my collection where the director of all people is credited as person A in the westernized opening credits and person B (different spelling) in the Japanese closing credits. How do you handle that?
Credits at times are very sloppily done, especially for foreign releases. So I wonder how we are supposed to deal such credits if they are the be-all end-all?
The way the rules are written.
Credit Director as spelled in Movie A
Credit Director as spelled in Movie B
Find Proper common name (if possible) and use credited as for proper movie. The person names are going to be fairly easy.
The difficult part is the roles. If in the movie they spelled "Charlie" (say written on pub sign in movie) and in the end credits they spell it "Charley", by the rules we credit "Charley". WE have no way to put in the correct name, unless we forgo the credits all together.
Charlie
Yeah, but what I mean is, in one and the same movie, the director is spelled as (fictional example) :
Opening credits: Masamune Ogata
Ending credits: Masamune Oogata
So which one do I enter? Both?
If CLT results show that Ogata is the most commonly occuring. Do I then just enter that or enter Masamune Ogata [Masamune Oogata]?
It's still puzzling to me. I'm sorry, I didn't read properly  End credits take preference over opening credits (At least as I understand), so in your example it would be as you surmised. Charlie |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,197 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting xradman: Quote:
We should just go with screen captures for "as credited" crowds. No arguments about what's correct and exactly as credited. Then perhaps we can use the database for correct names and proper linking. Since some people would not believe the film credits to be correct per their standards, that wouldn't solve anything. They would still ilke to correct them, maybe with a paint tool?  But it would at least save us from typing...  | | | | First registered: February 15, 2002 |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,641 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting KinoNiki: Quote:
Quoting GSyren:
Quote:
I want to document the roles played as per the movie (which in extension is per the script). If the end credits do not reflect the script, then I consider the script correct, not the credits.
Nothing is stopping you from doing precisely what you want in your own database. What I don't understand is why you want to impose your standards on everyone else, especially since few seem to agree with them. I haven't said anything about imposing my standards. Please stop putting words in my mouth. I have stated what I would prefer. And quite frankly I'm stunned that so many people think the credits are more important than the actual movie. But I guess that we'll just have to agree to disagree. | | | My freeware tools for DVD Profiler users.
Gunnar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting GSyren: Quote:
I haven't said anything about imposing my standards. Please stop putting words in my mouth.
I have stated what I would prefer. And quite frankly I'm stunned that so many people think the credits are more important than the actual movie. But I guess that we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't think I saw anybody say that the credits are more important than the actual movie. What I have seen, is people saying that the rules require us to copy them and, while you may not want to, if we are allowed to correct credits, there will be people who will try to impose their own standards, so they prefer it that way. I'm not asking you to agree with them, but there is no reason to ridicule them simply because they don't agree with you...not you specifically, you in general. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,197 |
| | Posted: | | | | Since you can already do what you prefer, I assumed that you want to change the way we do things in the online. If this is not the case, I guess I've misread you. However, it does seem a lot simpler to me if everyone is using the same data from the film credits as their starting point for the online and then makes any changes in their personal db to suit whatever personal preferences they might have. | | | | First registered: February 15, 2002 |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,330 |
| | Posted: | | | | Completely agree | | | | Pete |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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