Welcome to the Invelos forums. Please read the forum rules before posting.

Read access to our public forums is open to everyone. To post messages, a free registration is required.

If you have an Invelos account, sign in to post.

    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2 3 4 5  Previous   Next
real name vs credited
Author Message
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,201
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
We are speaking of "standards" for entering data in a database with sorting, filtering and linking functions (I think there are better words for that, I was just answering to a user who used this one..).
Believe me, when the result changes with time for the same object, we can say that the "standard" is not appropriate for those functions...

On this we agree, which is why I don't bother with the CLT or common names.  When I audit a title, I go strictly 'as credited' with one to one conversions to mixed case.

The problem is, no rule change is going to solve the name linking issue.  Let's take your first suggestion, always use the maiden name.

Actress does 3 films as Joan Smith, then gets married and does 47 films as Joan Sampson.

Films 1, 2 & 3 get entered as Joan Smith.
Films 4 - 10 get entered as Joan Smith because people know they are the same person.
Films 11 - 40 get entered as both Joan Smith and Joan Sampson because a mix of old and new users are entering them and the new users don't know they are the same person
Films 41 - 50 get entered as Joan Sampson because new users don't know who Joan Smith is and the old users have moved on.

While that's overly simplified, it is a situation that can, and probably will occur.  It will happen with any standard...changing or arbitrary.  I just don't see how changing the standard makes anything better.  The only thing that will fix this is a program change to a unique identifier.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
 Last edited: by TheMadMartian
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorScooter1836
Registered: October 30, 2011
Reputation: Great Rating
United States Posts: 1,870
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
We are speaking of "standards" for entering data in a database with sorting, filtering and linking functions (I think there are better words for that, I was just answering to a user who used this one..).
Believe me, when the result changes with time for the same object, we can say that the "standard" is not appropriate for those functions...

On this we agree, which is why I don't bother with the CLT or common names.  When I audit a title, I go strictly 'as credited' with one to one conversions to mixed case.

The problem is, no rule change is going to solve the name linking issue.  Let's take your first suggestion, always use the maiden name.

Actress does 3 films as Joan Smith, then gets married and does 47 films as Joan Sampson.

Films 1, 2 & 3 get entered as Joan Smith.
Films 4 - 10 get entered as Joan Smith because people know they are the same person.
Films 11 - 40 get entered as both Joan Smith and Joan Sampson because a mix of old and new users are entering them and the new users don't know they are the same person
Films 41 - 50 get entered as Joan Sampson because new users don't know who Joan Smith is and the old users have moved on.

While that's overly simplified, it is a situation that can, and probably will occur.  It will happen with any standard...changing or arbitrary.  I just don't see how changing the standard makes anything better.  The only thing that will fix this is a program change to a unique identifier.


I agree, and until that happens we have to struggle along with the CLT and common name threads.  The rules/standards we have today are not perfect, but they are usable.  The only reason to change them would be to get a better result that is usable and more accurate for the user base as a whole.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
France Posts: 4,479
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
The only thing that will fix this is a program change to a unique identifier.

OK, so in some monthes, years, or never, we have a program change with a unique identifier. So in your example, Joan Smith will be identified by the program as Ft24587. You will still have to know that Joan Sampson is the same person and link her to Ft24587.

Is it easier to link Joan Sampson to FT24587 than to Joan Smith ? I do not think so. Joan Smith is just the "unique identifier", I mean the common name defined by specific rules, and not by a changing CLT. With half a dozen of specific rules (for married people, for middle names, for Asian or accented names, for fake BY...), you solve tomorrow 99% of common names threads, and the job necessary to link the future "unique identifier", that will have to be done, will be already available...
Images from movies
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,201
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
The only thing that will fix this is a program change to a unique identifier.

OK, so in some monthes, years, or never, we have a program change with a unique identifier. So in your example, Joan Smith will be identified by the program as Ft24587. You will still have to know that Joan Sampson is the same person and link her to Ft24587.

Is it easier to link Joan Sampson to FT24587 than to Joan Smith ? I do not think so. Joan Smith is just the "unique identifier", I mean the common name defined by specific rules, and not by a changing CLT. With half a dozen of specific rules (for married people, for middle names, for Asian or accented names, for fake BY...), you solve tomorrow 99% of common names threads, and the job necessary to link the future "unique identifier", that will have to be done, will be already available...

Who said it was easier?

Here's the bottom line, at least for me, people have already done the work, under the current system, to get names to link.  I don't see the point in throwing out all that work, in favor of a new system that will create more work, unless there is a huge benefit.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
France Posts: 4,479
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
... people have already done the work, under the current system, to get names to link.

Not at all. Not 10% of common names threads have found the result, and some have been opened several years ago. With a common name defined by specific rules, everything will be clear tomorrow, including thousands of not yet opened common name threads (thousands of names have non linking variants in CLT)
Images from movies
 Last edited: by surfeur51
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorScooter1836
Registered: October 30, 2011
Reputation: Great Rating
United States Posts: 1,870
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
... people have already done the work, under the current system, to get names to link.

Not at all. Not 10% of common names threads have found the result, and some have been opened several years ago. With a common name defined by specific rules, everything will be clear tomorrow, including thousands of not yet opened common name threads (thousands of names have non linking variants in CLT)


I have a spreadsheet where I track common name threads.  I went through the forums and found all I could.  I just recently visited all those threads to determine if they were conclusive or not out of 534 common name threads 446 are conclusive and that is 83.5205992509363% that have found the result (success rate).  Some are old and need updating.  But that is the result.

The thing Martian is pointing out.  Is if we are going to change it, it needs changed for the better and something that is more objective and not add any complex subjective nuances.

scotthm said it perfectly
Quote:

You can't go far wrong if you contribute actors names "exactly as they are in the credits", making the exception that "if the credit information is entirely capitalized, use standard capitalization rules instead."  (And capitalization rules have been clarified to avoid the need for interpretation as to how to convert uppercase to lower case letters.)

There is no requirement for knowing "real names" or using the CLT to make contributions of cast or crew, and in fact if every contribution had followed this rule then the CLT would be in pretty good shape.
 Last edited: by Scooter1836
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 13,201
Posted:
PM this userEmail this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Not at all. Not 10% of common names threads have found the result, and some have been opened several years ago. With a common name defined by specific rules, everything will be clear tomorrow, including thousands of not yet opened common name threads (thousands of names have non linking variants in CLT)

Where are you coming up with these percentages?  Have you really done the math, and figured it out, or are you just throwing them out there for effect?  If what you say is true, and less that 10% of the common name threads have found the result, why are people still using that method?  Why continue using a method that has a 90% failure rate?  I am sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense to me.

Edit: I see Scooter did the math.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
 Last edited: by TheMadMartian
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributoremmeli
www.myprofiler.de
Registered: June 26, 2013
Reputation: High Rating
Germany Posts: 694
Posted:
PM this userVisit this user's homepageView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Is it easier to link Joan Sampson to FT24587 than to Joan Smith ? I do not think so.


but it is. you have change one (1) profil for FT24587 after she has married again. the result is, that all profiles get this update and no more discuss for any common name.


the real BirthYear OverView
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorScooter1836
Registered: October 30, 2011
Reputation: Great Rating
United States Posts: 1,870
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:

Is it easier to link Joan Sampson to FT24587 than to Joan Smith ?
I do not think so.


That would depend on the interface to this yet to be determined hypothetical change.

I would think that you would still need to input the credited name and each name in the yet to be conceived name database would have to be able to associate name variants along with the name so you could select the correct one.

The ease of use of that type of interface would be a key factor in that type of database solution.
 Last edited: by Scooter1836
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
France Posts: 4,479
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting emmeli:
Quote:
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Is it easier to link Joan Sampson to FT24587 than to Joan Smith ? I do not think so.


but it is. you have change one (1) profil for FT24587 after she has married again. the result is, that all profiles get this update and no more discuss for any common name.

I agree with that , and that is why I'm in favor of a new system.

But, once again, I think this will never happen, and even if it happens one day, we have still thousands of variants without any common name thread to link. With my proposal, those links would be easy to create very quickly. Doing nothing with rules means we'll wait until the new system is implemented to begin to work on those thousands of non linking names.
Images from movies
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
France Posts: 4,479
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting Scooter1836:
Quote:
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:

Is it easier to link Joan Sampson to FT24587 than to Joan Smith ?
I do not think so.

That would depend on the interface to this yet to be determined hypothetical change.


In fact, when I wrote "easier", I spoke of the difficulty to know that Joan Sampson and Joan Smith are the same person, or that Joan Smith in film 1 and Joan Smith in film 2 are two different actresses. This job must be done in any case, whatever the system. For each new movie, you will have to link a credit with an unique identifier, and this is easy for top list actors, much more difficult for unknown actors.
Images from movies
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
France Posts: 4,479
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting Scooter1836:
Quote:
....446 are conclusive and that is 83.5205992509363% that have found the result (success rate). 

As you have exact statistics, can you precise how many names among those 446 have CLT results matching with common name thread conclusions? That is what I call "result".
Images from movies
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantJMGuer
Registered: June 1, 2013
Portugal Posts: 217
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Quoting emmeli:
Quote:
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Is it easier to link Joan Sampson to FT24587 than to Joan Smith ? I do not think so.


but it is. you have change one (1) profil for FT24587 after she has married again. the result is, that all profiles get this update and no more discuss for any common name.

I agree with that , and that is why I'm in favor of a new system.

But, once again, I think this will never happen, and even if it happens one day, we have still thousands of variants without any common name thread to link. With my proposal, those links would be easy to create very quickly. Doing nothing with rules means we'll wait until the new system is implemented to begin to work on those thousands of non linking names.




At a local level, this is very achievable and easy to do (assuming the interest/passion is there) you simply designate cast/crew with the same name as (I), (II), etc.

Tony Curtis (I): Some Like it Hot

Tony Curtis (II): Something About AJ



Carleton Young (I): No Escape


Carleton Young (II): His Kind of Woman

You can have 10,000 DVDs/films in your database....300,000 cast/crew...every entry will be correct and properly linked.
Actress Jane Doe (I) decides to change her name to Jane Dow...and you want to change it in your local to reflect this, no problem, all you need to do is change one entry and the other 50
titles you have with her in them will change automatically...always linked.
Since you are the only one entering data into your local you will never have a case of improperly linked names.
You buy a new DVD with Carleton Young in it....real easy to find out (assuming you don't already know this info, eg.: visual recognition of said actor) which Carleton Young it is, (I) or (II)

No need to fuss over common names, birth years, credited as.....Tony Curtis (I) is Tony Curtis (I) is Tony Curtis (I)....makes no difference that he was credited as Anthony Curtis in a couple of his early movies...makes no difference what year he was born in....Tony Curtis (I) is Tony Curtis (I). Infallible.

Be it (I), (II) or FT24587, FT24588 or whatever, the idea is the same......but one will always need to determine (make an effort to find out) which name is which
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
France Posts: 4,479
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting JMGuer:
Quote:
At a local level, this is very achievable and easy to do (assuming the interest/passion is there) you simply designate cast/crew with the same name as (I), (II), etc.

Of course, you are right. As for me, I prefer to use fake BY, I find it looks better in the actors list window.

But the problem is not local. Many fans have a correct linking for them, but all this work (made several times in parallel) is useless for average users who have not more time than just download their profiles from the online database. And those just get all the errors requested by rules.
Images from movies
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorScooter1836
Registered: October 30, 2011
Reputation: Great Rating
United States Posts: 1,870
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Quoting Scooter1836:
Quote:
....446 are conclusive and that is 83.5205992509363% that have found the result (success rate). 

As you have exact statistics, can you precise how many names among those 446 have CLT results matching with common name thread conclusions? That is what I call "result".


Not something I am going to take the time to do.  Plus that would really require point in time measurements of the CLT since there could have been corrections on the titles since a thread was opened. Corrections to profiles is sometimes done by users based on the thread and not all threads post the actual CLT results prior.

Whether or not the thread proves or disproves the CLT is not the point of a common name thread anyway.  The reason for opening the common name thread is that the particular name (and variants) have suspect data in the CLT and the point is to find the conclusive answer.  Whether the CLT (at that point in time) yielded the same resulting common name or not, is immaterial.  The only thing that is material is that when the common name thread was opened the OP wanted a conclusive answer to suspect data.

But before you throw out numbers like 10% you need to be able to back that up.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
Strength Through Unity
Registered: May 19, 2007
Reputation: Superior Rating
Germany Posts: 6,730
Posted:
PM this userView this user's DVD collectionDirect link to this postReply with quote
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Quoting Scooter1836:
Quote:
....446 are conclusive and that is 83.5205992509363% that have found the result (success rate). 

As you have exact statistics, can you precise how many names among those 446 have CLT results matching with common name thread conclusions? That is what I call "result".


The result would be close to 0%.
But this doesn't come as a surprise and is just the result of two facts, which are:
1) Incorrect data partially grandfathered from Intervocative, partially new, submitted by users who think they know better than to follow the rules.

2) The CLT can not de-link, so if we have 200 different John Does (all with accepted BYs), of which one mainly appears as John X. Doe, the CLT will not be able to give a correct result since it will throw all entries for the other 199 John Does into the count too.
It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


Registrant since 05/22/2003
 Last edited: by Lewis_Prothero
    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1 2 3 4 5  Previous   Next