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Quoting mcellophane:

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Quoting hal9g:

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The 'state' should remain neutral.

California is currently neutral. It's currently legal for same-sex couples to marry in Californai. This proposition would force the state to become one-sided again.

We should all be careful when legislating morality for others as we may find ourselves in the minority view at some point and find our beliefs outlawed.

It is only legal for same sex couples to marry in California because of a judicial fiat that overturned the already stated will of the people. So your argument is not an accurate one -- the prop 8 vote is designed to put things back the way they were before a group of activist judges changed it.

Brian

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For me, this issue is quite simple.  I believe that homosexual activity is both unnatural and immoral; and I am far from alone.

Having the 'state' issue a license sanctioning an activity which a great many people believe to be immoral is simply wrong.

Please show me any other license that the government issues which promotes an activity that is considered immoral by so many.  The 'state' should remain neutral.

And please don't start throwing the homophobe word around.  I do not hate nor fear any living person.  In fact my brother happens to be gay, and I love him none the less for it.  I do however, fear for his immortal soul!

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Of course I am trying to impose my views on you - that is not something I am hiding. I am always willing to impose my view that religious dogmas should not apply to anyone but those following the religion.

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Please explain to me (besides religious dogma as that can obviously not apply to people who do not share your religion) why this is any different.

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On the other hand, they could just be enjoying themselves, suggests Paul Vasey, animal behavior professor at the University of Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada. "They're engaging in the behavior because it's gratifying sexually or it's sexually pleasurable," he says. "They just like it. It doesn't have any sort of adaptive payoff."

Matthew Grober, biology professor at Georgia State University, agrees, saying, "If [sex] wasn't fun, we wouldn't have any kids around. So I think that maybe Japanese macaques have taken the fun aspect of sex and really run with it."

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The bonobo, an African ape closely related to humans, has an even bigger sexual appetite. Studies suggest 75 percent of bonobo sex is nonreproductive and that nearly all bonobos are bisexual. Frans de Waal, author of Bonobo: The Forgotten Ape, calls the species a "make love, not war" primate. He believes bonobos use sex to resolve conflicts between individuals.

Other animals appear to go through a homosexual phase before they become fully mature. For instance, male dolphin calves often form temporary sexual partnerships, which scientists believe help to establish lifelong bonds. Such sexual behavior has been documented only relatively recently. Zoologists have been accused of skirting round the subject for fear of stepping into a political minefield.

"There was a lot of hiding of what was going on, I think, because people were maybe afraid that they would get into trouble by talking about it," notes de Waal. Whether it's a good idea or not, it's hard not make comparisons between humans and other animals, especially primates. The fact that homosexuality does, after all, exist in the natural world is bound to be used against people who insist such behavior is unnatural.

In the U.S., in particular, the moral debate over this issue rages on. Many on the religious right regard homosexuality as a sin. And only this month, President Bush vowed to continue his bid to ban gay marriages after the Senate blocked the proposal.

Already, cases of animal homosexuality have been cited in successful court cases brought against states like Texas, where gay sex was, until recently, illegal.

Yet scientists say we should be wary of referring to animals when considering what's acceptable in human society. For instance, infanticide, as practiced by lions and many other animals, isn't something people, gay or straight, generally approve of in humans.

Human Homosexuality

So how far can we go in using animals to help us understand human homosexuality? Robin Dunbar is a professor of evolutionary psychology at the University of Liverpool, England. "The bottom line is that anything that happens in other primates, and particularly other apes, is likely to have strong evolutionary continuity with what happens in humans," he said.

Dunbar says the bonobo's use of homosexual activity for social bonding is a possible example, adding, "One of the main arguments for human homosexual behavior is that it helps bond male groups together, particularly where a group of individuals are dependent on each other, as they might be in hunting or warfare."

For instance, the Spartans, in ancient Greece, encouraged homosexuality among their elite troops. "They had the not unreasonable belief that individuals would stick by and make all efforts to rescue other individuals if they had a lover relationship," Dunbar added.

Another suggestion is that homosexuality is a developmental phase people go through. He said, "This is similar to the argument of play in young animals to get their brain and muscles to work effectively and together. Off the back of this, there's the possibility you can get individuals locked into this phase for the rest of their lives as a result of the social environment they grow up in."

But he adds that homosexuality doesn't necessarily have to have a function. It could be a spin-off or by-product of something else and in itself carries no evolutionary weight."

He cites sexual gratification, which encourages procreation, as an example. "An organism is designed to maximize its motivational systems," he adds.

In other words, if the urge to have sex is strong enough it may spill over into nonreproductive sex, as suggested by the actions of the bonobos and macaques. However, as Dunbar admits, there's a long way to go before the causes of homosexuality in humans are fully understood.

He said, "Nobody's really investigated this issue thoroughly, because it's so politically sensitive. It's fair to say all possibilities are still open.

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You are so offbase and bigoted here it is disturbing.

... but your arrogance and condescension doesn't make your belief system anymore correct than mine.

Your comparisons are offensive and the last recluse of someone with a great deal of hatred in your heart. Whether you can see it or not you have much more in common with those despicable South African apartheid supporters than I do. You seek to prevent me from making my case by repeatedly referring to me in the most disgusting ways possible.

...you are desperate 

Your absolute self-righteous belief in your own moral superiority is very troubling.


Brian

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It is only legal for same sex couples to marry in California because of a judicial fiat that overturned the already stated will of the people. So your argument is not an accurate one -- the prop 8 vote is designed to put things back the way they were before a group of activist judges changed it.

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Quoting Dr. Killpatient:

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Quoting 8ballMax:

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I'm voting a resounding YES because of MY religious beliefs and NOT because of any "party Line".  If anyone can't accept THAT then there's nothing more to be said.

But isn't that imposing your religious beliefs onto others?

Absolutely. The Lord said to love and forgive the sinner, not the sin. I'm just trying to help those that won't help themselves .