Quoting TheMadMartian:

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Quoting Pantheon:

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Either way, the attitude of some people here is that piracy - be it of a program or other media - is ok; and that we should stop policing it. Well, those people are not worth my time or effort.

I haven't seen anybody express that attitude.  What I have seen is people disagreeing with your opinion that violating an EULA constitutes piracy.  Are you really that arrogant as to believe your opinion is the only valid one.

Sir, you have a tendency to take everything I say very literally with no room for reading between the lines or adjustment.
I realise that this is more than likely my fault for not being as specific as you would like with my statements. Or you simply have taken a dislike to me and enjoy picking fault with everything I say. I'm honestly not sure which.

However, the above statement... On many occasions, in many different threads over the many years I have been coming in here I have seen many people openly discuss/admit their piracy antics. In this thread someone specifically stated we should download pirated material (albeit in a sarcastic/joking manner), also those of us who feel strongly have been accused of policing or requested to 'get off our soapbox'.
I haven't told anyone who disagrees with me to stop talking or to change their opinion. I have simply expressed my opinion, and for that have been effectively told to shut up.

Likewise, I haven't sworn at anyone or abused them verbally. I have expressed an opinion on piracy - now if you consider that view to be an arrogant one then I will concede that I am arrogant.

However, if you think that standing up for my opinions and not being afraid to express them is arrogant then I'm sorry to say I disagree with you - and if that makes me arrogant then so be it.

What would you have me do? Do you want me to simply change my mind and agree with you (or others)? Am I expected to capitulate because someone doesn't agree with me? If someone doesn't agree with me does that make me wrong?
Many, many other forum users do not budge from their opinion. I don't accuse them of arrogance; or even assume that they are arrogant. What I assume is that they have very strong feelings on the subject and that they are standing by what they believe. To have the courage to stand by ones convictions does not imply or demonstrate arrogance, in my opinion. What it displays is backbone, bravery and the ability to not wear wool and go baaa.

Lastly, and once again, I apologise if sometimes my posts are not specific enough or give enough examples of what I am talking about.

I was going to leave this thread behind, with my last post, but didn't want you to think I said something I didn't, so here goes...

Quoting Pantheon:

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Sir, you have a tendency to take everything I say very literally with no room for reading between the lines or adjustment. I realise that this is more than likely my fault for not being as specific as you would like with my statements. Or you simply have taken a dislike to me and enjoy picking fault with everything I say. I'm honestly not sure which.

It isn't just you, I do that for everybody.  I have gotten in trouble, in the past, for assuming people meant something other than what they wrote or said.  Because of that, I tend to take things literally.  There are, of course, exceptions, but more of then than not, that is how I treat forum posts.

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Likewise, I haven't sworn at anyone or abused them verbally. I have expressed an opinion on piracy - now if you consider that view to be an arrogant one then I will concede that I am arrogant.

However, if you think that standing up for my opinions and not being afraid to express them is arrogant then I'm sorry to say I disagree with you - and if that makes me arrogant then so be it.

What would you have me do? Do you want me to simply change my mind and agree with you (or others)? Am I expected to capitulate because someone doesn't agree with me? If someone doesn't agree with me does that make me wrong? Many, many other forum users do not budge from their opinion. I don't accuse them of arrogance; or even assume that they are arrogant. What I assume is that they have very strong feelings on the subject and that they are standing by what they believe. To have the courage to stand by ones convictions does not imply or demonstrate arrogance, in my opinion. What it displays is backbone, bravery and the ability to not wear wool and go baaa.

I did not mean to imply that you were arrogant, I meant to question whether or not you were arrogant enough to believe that your opinion was the only correct one.  I was asking because, i am sorry to say, that's how it came across to me.  I can see now that I didn't phrase it as well as I thought and, for that, I am sorry.

Let me be clear, I have no problem with differing opinions.  What I have a problem with, is someone telling me that my opinion is wrong, that I am a thief, that I am a software pirate, that I deserve no respect, and "are not worth my time or effort," simply because that opinion differs from theirs.  That opinion being...

If I buy a single install license of a program, one that I can install on one machine only, MS doesn't care what machine I install it on.  It could be mine, yours, my neighbors, basically any machine as long as that is the only machine I install it on.

If, however, I buy a multi-user license, one that allows me to install the program onto 3 different machines, owned by 3 different people, MS suddenly cares who those people are...they must reside in my home.  To me, that is an unreasonable restriction and one I do not accept.  In my opinion, as long as I only install it on 3 machines, it's none of their business who those machines belong to as they still got payed.

I understand that some users don't agree with that opinion, and I am fine with that, but to believe that my opinion is wrong, simply because it doesn't match yours...the general yours...to me, is arrogant.

I suppose I should point out that this is just my opinion, I honestly can't afford to be buying multi-user licenses and giving them away.  All the ones I have purchased are sitting on my children's computers. 

Quoting TheMadMartian:

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I was going to leave this thread behind, with my last post, but didn't want you to think I said something I didn't, so here goes...

Quoting Pantheon:

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Sir, you have a tendency to take everything I say very literally with no room for reading between the lines or adjustment. I realise that this is more than likely my fault for not being as specific as you would like with my statements. Or you simply have taken a dislike to me and enjoy picking fault with everything I say. I'm honestly not sure which.

It isn't just you, I do that for everybody.  I have gotten in trouble, in the past, for assuming people meant something other than what they wrote or said.  Because of that, I tend to take things literally.  There are, of course, exceptions, but more of then than not, that is how I treat forum posts.

Quote:
Likewise, I haven't sworn at anyone or abused them verbally. I have expressed an opinion on piracy - now if you consider that view to be an arrogant one then I will concede that I am arrogant.

However, if you think that standing up for my opinions and not being afraid to express them is arrogant then I'm sorry to say I disagree with you - and if that makes me arrogant then so be it.

What would you have me do? Do you want me to simply change my mind and agree with you (or others)? Am I expected to capitulate because someone doesn't agree with me? If someone doesn't agree with me does that make me wrong? Many, many other forum users do not budge from their opinion. I don't accuse them of arrogance; or even assume that they are arrogant. What I assume is that they have very strong feelings on the subject and that they are standing by what they believe. To have the courage to stand by ones convictions does not imply or demonstrate arrogance, in my opinion. What it displays is backbone, bravery and the ability to not wear wool and go baaa.

I did not mean to imply that you were arrogant, I meant to question whether or not you were arrogant enough to believe that your opinion was the only correct one.  I was asking because, i am sorry to say, that's how it came across to me.  I can see now that I didn't phrase it as well as I thought and, for that, I am sorry.

Let me be clear, I have no problem with differing opinions.  What I have a problem with, is someone telling me that my opinion is wrong, that I am a thief, that I am a software pirate, that I deserve no respect, and "are not worth my time or effort," simply because that opinion differs from theirs.  That opinion being...

If I buy a single install license of a program, one that I can install on one machine only, MS doesn't care what machine I install it on.  It could be mine, yours, my neighbors, basically any machine as long as that is the only machine I install it on.

If, however, I buy a multi-user license, one that allows me to install the program onto 3 different machines, owned by 3 different people, MS suddenly cares who those people are...they must reside in my home.  To me, that is an unreasonable restriction and one I do not accept.  In my opinion, as long as I only install it on 3 machines, it's none of their business who those machines belong to as they still got payed.

I understand that some users don't agree with that opinion, and I am fine with that, but to believe that my opinion is wrong, simply because it doesn't match yours...the general yours...to me, is arrogant.

I suppose I should point out that this is just my opinion, I honestly can't afford to be buying multi-user licenses and giving them away.  All the ones I have purchased are sitting on my children's computers. 

Nicely said. I agree completely.

On kinda the same subject.

What are the rules for reusing photos or screen grabs of movies for all these cute little avatars. Did everyone get permission?

How about copying the covers and posting them here. It is copyright material.

Quoting Lord Of The Sith:

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Quoting ateo357:

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On kinda the same subject.

What are the rules for reusing photos or screen grabs of movies for all these cute little avatars. Did everyone get permission?

How about copying the covers and posting them here. It is copyright material.

I don't have an avatar and I do not post or repost any of the materials you have mentioned.

wasn't solely directed towards you, but
you don't have any cover photos or headshots in your database. 236 image contributions.

Quoting Pantheon:

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Asking for a used licence is akin to piracy in my opinion.
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I abide by license agreements, EULAs etc.
...

Right. I am with you on being against piracy. It amounts to illegal profitering of someone else's efforts to create something.

Just to make sure we're on the same page in the details...:

Provided it was clear BEFORE the moment of sale a multi-PC license for a SINGLE household was on offer, it is also a no no to sell obtained but-not-used copies (read: licence keys) to someone not in your household. I think just about everyone who posted in this thread agrees on this.

At least in Europe selling what you own is allowed. It is a cornerstone of free market enterprise. That includes software, see the above posts on court decisions. Any restriction on that in a licence agreement (whether called EULA or...) is null and void according to the law. Even apart from the question whether you (could) read the licence agreement before the sale. As others have pointed out before in this thread it does require the seller to remove the software from his PC('s) and possibly destroy back-ups. Here too, I do not see any posts in this thread going against this.
Keeping a copy of the software IS effectively copying and selling for illegal profit and I totally agree that that is wrong.
In case of a multi-PC license for a single household this requires deletion from all your PC's.

So as the request in the OP could mean either a never (!) used single copy, or a copy which means the seller destroyed his own installation(s), it is perfectly valid for these cases.

BTW you are of course completely free to abide by any EULA. Just know that in many cases the EULA is irrelevant because is wasn't disclosed before the purchase was made (see above posts).

Just to add the obvious for completeness sake -- for some, perhaps not for others.

You're free to create an avatar yourselves. Just dabble with some of the many pieces of commercial (Photoshop, CorelDraw, -Paint etc) or free (GIMP, etc) software. You will be the copyright owner of that and can use it as avatar. Whether it looks good or bad doesn't matter 

Similarly, any digital photo you made yourselves or a scan of your own (pre-digital age) photo's. Whether it is the basis of an avatar or just a part.

Remember also, copyright does only live for 70 years (though Disney tries to circumvent this). Any image older than that is free of rights and can be scanned and manipulated to your liking for an avatar.

Quoting TheMadMartian:

Quote:
If, however, I buy a multi-user license, one that allows me to install the program onto 3 different machines, owned by 3 different people, MS suddenly cares who those people are...they must reside in my home.  To me, that is an unreasonable restriction and one I do not accept.  In my opinion, as long as I only install it on 3 machines, it's none of their business who those machines belong to as they still got payed.

I'm sorry, but you not liking the restriction and your opinion of it being none of their business is irrelevant. If they say "In order to use our software, you must agree to these terms," you either agree to them or not, regardless of what you think of them. If you agree to them, you follow their terms. If you don't, you don't purchase the product. It's black and white (as far as whether or not you intend to follow the agreement you made with Microsoft).

I don't care either way, but don't try to justify you not following the terms of service simply because you find the restrictions unreasonable. That's cool if you do, but if you were to provide the license to someone outside your household, whether you like it or not, you are in the wrong.

This, of course, if you have the Home Edition, which explicitly states in the TOS: 12. HOME AND STUDENT SOFTWARE. For software marked “Home and Student” edition, you may install one copy of the software on up to three licensed devices in your household for use by people for whom that is their primary residence.

This isn't an opinion, it's a fact. It's that black and white.