Quoting northbloke:

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Quoting hal9g:

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Quoting DJ Doena:

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Quoting kemper:

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I must agree!..... What if this were a thread on cars.... more people are killed in them than with guns... Who here is afraid of a car?

I would argue that most people need a car but I don't see the need for a gun. But then again I don't live in the land of the free where you need a gun to protect yourself.

So Germany is crime-free?

You are indeed fortunate! 

Surprisingly, there are quite a few countries out there who are quite capable of dealing with crime without the need to arm the general populace! 

It's not a matter of needing to arm the public, it's a matter of DISarming a public that once had the right to own firearms (at least in the case of Britain).  It is also a case of having the right of self protection inherent in the rights of every freeborn man.  Remember that in Germany in the 1930's when Hitler came to power, one of his first acts to consolidate his power was to go around to the local police stations and get the lists of all the people who owned guns so that the SS could go around and gather them up.  That effectively removed any possibility of the people deciding to rise up and overthrow his rule.  There have simply been too many times in history where tyrants and despots have disarmed the populace by law or by force to not recognize that our 2nd Amendment is a VERY powerful force in the foundations of our law.

Quoting FUBAR:

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The following is what the US State Department says about Germany (for the travelling American public):

"CRIME:  Violent crime is rare in Germany, but can occur, especially in larger cities or high-risk areas such as train stations. Most incidents of street crime consist of theft of unattended items and pick-pocketing. There have been a few reports of aggravated assault against U.S. citizens in higher-risk areas. American travelers are advised to take the same precautions against becoming crime victims as they would in any American city."

I am pretty certain that no one here can say that violent crime is rare in the U.S.

Most of the violent crime in the US takes place in areas that the average tourist (US or international) isn't going to go in any case.  If you stay out of the ghetto and the bario where the druggies hang out, and away from the prostitutes that hang out in the local bars and nightclubs and in the seedier parts of town you won't be likely to become the victim of a violent crime.

Quoting lmoelleb:

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Obviusly this is not a black and white question.

If guns are generally available, it will save some and get others killed. Sure we can all argue if it will get more or less killed - but in reality we do not know for sure - you can't simply rely on the statistics from the different countries as it is influenced by cultural differences.

Also remember that your values are based on history. The US gained it's indepence by it's citizens fighting a suppressing government, and I would be surprised if the US constitutions isn't written to try to make sure the people can do it again if needed. I guess people in countries who have not gone though this lately (lately as in historic context) simply have other priorities on civil rights (I certainly do - I can't affort the fighter jet needed to fight my government these days anyway).

In the US there are approximately 2.5 to 3 million uses of firearms every year in the deterrance of a crime, the vast majority of which do not involve the firing of a single shot.  The mere presence of the gun is enough to preventl the attempted crime from even occurring.  That fact has been established by statistical evidence taken over a period of at least 20 years.  It has also been shown that more victims are seriously hurt/killed by acquiescing to a criminal during commission of a felony than there are among those who resist by using a firearm.

In addition, there are other factors that must be taken into account before you can simply say that this or that country is safer because it has a lower rate of some crime compared to the US.  First and foremost, is the fact that the US population is between 4 and 5 times greater than Germany.  German culture is much more insular and traditional than is the US -- mainly because of our "melting pot" society.

Quoting Mithi:

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Quoting Rifter:

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It has been my experience over the years that people who exhibit such fear and/or loathing of guns is usually because they know nothing about them beyond the horror stories they hear on the news.

Well, in my time in the german army I was trained to fire the G3 assault-rifle, the P1 pistol, the Uzi submachine-gun and the MG-2 machine-gun.
And I still loath the idea of such weapons in the hands of the general populace.

cya, Mithi

In addition to the points made by Dan, I will add that to the best of my knowledge there has never been a crime committed in the US by anyone who legally owns automatic weapons.  Those weapons are very expensive to obtain, expensive to shoot, and there is a $200 annual tax that they must pay for each and every one of them that they own.  Those law abiding citizens who go to the trouble of doing it legally are simply not going to risk losing them by using them in a criminal manner.

Quoting Snark:

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Quoting FUBAR:

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Are there any stories of responsible gun owners successfully defending their homes and family?  You would think there would be plenty of them considering the argument that they are needed for this purpose.

There absolutely are!  But there's a reason that there are less of them.  It's still more likely for a gun to injure or kill a family member than to be used to successfully defend against a crime.

But idiots are everywhere and the rights of responsible gun owners to defend themselves outweigh the fact that idiots will kill themselves. (Or others)

I hate to rag on you but you are wrong about guns killing family members as you state above.  That is a lie that has been perpetrated for 25 years or more by Sarah Brady and other anti-gun types.  It has been disproved more times than I can count.  You'll also find the number of "children" killed by firearms to be wildly overinflated by those same people because they include people between 18-24 in the same group as children under 18.

Quoting AESP_pres:

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Quoting Rifter:

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Pick up a copy of any of the publications put out monthly by the National Rifle Association, such as "American Rifleman", "Freedom 1st", "American Hunter".  There is a segment every month in each that consists of newspaper accounts from around the country of people who have used firearms to defend themselves and their families and friends.  Ordinary folks standing up for their rights.

Jon you are usually the first to point that the media reports are biased in the US. Personally I don't think that any publications published by the NRA can't be seen as unbiased. Note that I don't comment on the article since I don't read those publications, but it doesn't sound more unbiased to me than a Michael Moore documentary.

Don't ascribe the methods and tactics used by the anti-gunners to me or the NRA.  We cannot afford to stretch the truth.  If we did, the opposition would take that and beat us to death with it, in addition to the rest of the lies they perpetrate.  As for the articles in those publications, as I said they are clips from newspapers around the country that are printed verbatim just as they appeared.  They are not written by NRA staff.  Every fact that I have stated here in these posts can be verified if one wants to do the research.

I will be using my gun should Obama win....to defend myself against the right-wing rioters.

Quoting gardibolt:

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I will be using my gun should Obama win....to defend myself against the right-wing rioters.

Based on history, there is only one group that has ever rioted in this country and burned down their own neighborhoods and businesses.

And it wasn't "right-wing rioters".