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Vote on Hong Kong/Asian movie actor 'community' name!
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorArdos
Registered: July 31, 2008
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Quoting RHo:
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Quoting Dr Pavlov (formerly known as skipnet50):
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Do you see the 3 fields first/middle/last on your screen?

Stop bulls******* me and the rest of the community 

Do YOU see Family Name in use. Stop trying your BS argument, the only person who looks stupid is YOU.

Skip
Last name is a synonym to surname and family name. And yes, I can see a field with that label.



Your quoting the wrong person for that. It wasn't Skip but Sugarjoe - Original Post
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorRHo
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Forget_the_Rest:
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Your quoting the wrong person for that. It wasn't Skip but Sugarjoe - Original Post

Sorry, you are right! I have corrected this in my post now.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantWhite Pongo, Jr.
No, I iz no Cheshire Cat!
Registered: August 22, 2007
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Quoting RHo:
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Quoting sugarjoe:
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Quoting RHo:
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Therefore we get "Yun-Fat//Chow [Chow Yun-Fat]" for those credits.

This is one possible interpretation besides others. The rules leave us alone here.

No, not really. The fields are labelled first name, middle name, and last name. Those labels have a meaning and the meaning is not the same as first word, middle word, last word. First name is a synonym to given name and forename. And last name is a synonym to family name and surname.

Therefore Chow has to go into the last name field. And since the resulting string composed by profiler does not match the credit this way, we have to use the credited as field as well.


Yes, labels do have meanings, but please consider the following points.

For starters, meanings vary with cultures. Chinese family names don't come last, and their given names don't come first. 
But then, you could argue that it's an American program after all.
So, let's assume that "last name" equals "family name". Are we actually sticking with that meaning? Nope, Sir. Is ", Jr." part of the family name? No, it is not. I'd rather say it's a suffix to the given name, but we enter " Jr." in the last name field.  Odd, isn't it? We also enter "Dr." as a prefix preceding the first name. We enter nicknames in the "middle name" field. Strange and stranger!
Besides, there is now a filter in action which filters any "A/B/" to "A//B", whatever it is. Does it care of "meanings"?
I put it to you that we are using those fields in a way that only loosely resembles the usual meaning of their labels, but not strictly, and we stretch their meanings all the times if it's best for the program.
So, why not Chow//Yun-Fat? It is way easier, because it's onscreen and doesn't need rocket science to copy it, and there will be less splintering and ping-pongs. We are after screen credits, not genealogy, after all. 
-- Enry
 Last edited: by White Pongo, Jr.
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorm.cellophane
tonight's the night...
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting RHo:
Quote:
Quoting sugarjoe:
Quote:
Quoting RHo:
Quote:
Therefore we get "Yun-Fat//Chow [Chow Yun-Fat]" for those credits.

This is one possible interpretation besides others. The rules leave us alone here.

No, not really. The fields are labelled first name, middle name, and last name. Those labels have a meaning and the meaning is not the same as first word, middle word, last word. First name is a synonym to given name and forename. And last name is a synonym to family name and surname.

Therefore Chow has to go into the last name field. And since the resulting string composed by profiler does not match the credit this way, we have to use the credited as field as well.

I agree. And the fact that the program has filters for Jr./Sr. and A/B/ > A//B doesn't change what the meaning of what "last name" is. Last Name = Surname and if one puts Chow in the Last Name field, it's not against any rule.
...James

"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting m.cellophane:
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Quoting RHo:
Quote:
Quoting sugarjoe:
Quote:
Quoting RHo:
Quote:
Therefore we get "Yun-Fat//Chow [Chow Yun-Fat]" for those credits.

This is one possible interpretation besides others. The rules leave us alone here.

No, not really. The fields are labelled first name, middle name, and last name. Those labels have a meaning and the meaning is not the same as first word, middle word, last word. First name is a synonym to given name and forename. And last name is a synonym to family name and surname.

Therefore Chow has to go into the last name field. And since the resulting string composed by profiler does not match the credit this way, we have to use the credited as field as well.

I agree. And the fact that the program has filters for Jr./Sr. and A/B/ > A//B doesn't change what the meaning of what "last name" is. Last Name = Surname and if one puts Chow in the Last Name field, it's not against any rule.

Bull

skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorBad Father
Registered: July 23, 2001
Registered: March 13, 2007
Posts: 4,596
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Quoting RHo:
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Quoting 8ballMax:
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Don't know about everyone else but when I see film credits with Name 1, Name 2, Name 3 I enter them in the three available fields, Field 1, Field 2, Field 3. Unless it's proven with documentation that Name 1 & Name 2 both belong in Field 1 or that Name 2 & Name 3 both belong in Field 3. I don't fret much over it.

You do not see a credit with "Name 1, Name 2, Name 3". You see a credit with "Word 1, Word 2, Word 3". This could mean "First Name, Middle Name, Last Name". It could also mean "First Name, Last Name" (last name composed of two words) or "Last Name, First Name" (Asian style with a two worded first name) or "Title, First Name, Last Name" or "Stage Name" (composed of three words) and many more possiilities. You have to interpret the words in the credit. Otherwise you can not apply the given rules.

As you have said, with the given documentation a 3 worded credit may need to be stored differently as the simple "Word 1, Word 2, Word 3".



Wrong...I SEE FUNCTIONAL EQUIVALENTS
My WebGenDVD online Collection
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorm.cellophane
tonight's the night...
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Dr Pavlov:
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Bull

skip



Entering a known "surname" into the "last name" field is what one should do. The rules don't tell us to do otherwise. Some may have a practice of entering "first word = first name" and "last word = last name", but that's not directed by the rules. "Last name" very specifically means "surname" in America. It doesn't mean "third word" or "last word" of one's name. If one's "surname" is the "first word" in their name, that's equivalent to their "last name".
...James

"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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James:

From where I sit here is what I see. The intent of the Rules is tio get everybody on the same page. You take every opportunity to do the exact opposite and in fact encourage users to all do their own thing and input data anyway they want to. You have done this for years now. And frankly...my dear...

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorm.cellophane
tonight's the night...
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Dr Pavlov:
Quote:
James:

From where I sit here is what I see. The intent of the Rules is tio get everybody on the same page. You take every opportunity to do the exact opposite and in fact encourage users to all do their own thing and input data anyway they want to. You have done this for years now. And frankly...my dear...

Skip

No need to get personal. Just posted my opinion... 
...James

"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
Alien with an attitude
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting m.cellophane:
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Entering a known "surname" into the "last name" field is what one should do. The rules don't tell us to do otherwise. Some may have a practice of entering "first word = first name" and "last word = last name", but that's not directed by the rules. "Last name" very specifically means "surname" in America. It doesn't mean "third word" or "last word" of one's name. If one's "surname" is the "first word" in their name, that's equivalent to their "last name".


I have to disagree...

Chow Yun Fat has appeared in a few western films.  The last one I saw was Pirates: At World's End.  If memory serves, the actors were listed in 'first/middle/last' format.  For Chow Yun-Fat, that should have meant that he was listed as Yun-Fat Chow, right?  Well, he wasn't.  He was listed as 'Chow Yun-Fat'.  Why?  My guess is because, as is the tradition in his country, his family name comes first.

In asian culture, the first name is NOT the given name, it is the family name.  The given name is, in fact, the last name.  The problem I see here is that some people, for whatever reason, are trying to apply a western standard...first name equals given name, last name equals family name...to an asian name.  Somehow, that just doesn't seem right to me. 
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
 Last edited: by TheMadMartian
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorm.cellophane
tonight's the night...
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting Unicus69:
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If memory serves, the actors were listed in 'first/middle/last' format.  For Chow Yun-Fat, that should have meant that he was listed as Yun-Fat Chow, right?  Well, he wasn't.  He was listed as 'Chow Yun-Fat'.  Why?  My guess is because, as is the tradition in his country, his family name comes first.

Were the actors listed as first/middle/last or were the listed with their names shown as they're customarily written? Aren't you assuming that they're shown first/middle/last? There's no "last name" field in a frame of film, but there is in DVD Profiler.

We should put the data in the field to which it belongs, as this is a database. Entering data based on its positional appearance and declaring a surname to be "not a last name if it's listed first" seems odd to me. It seems right to me to enter known surnames as last names and to use Credited As to mimic the appearance of the credits.

If a surname is listed first, it's not entered as a surname? That's what doesn't seem right to me. 
...James

"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting m.cellophane:
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Quoting Dr Pavlov:
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James:

From where I sit here is what I see. The intent of the Rules is tio get everybody on the same page. You take every opportunity to do the exact opposite and in fact encourage users to all do their own thing and input data anyway they want to. You have done this for years now. And frankly...my dear...

Skip

No need to get personal. Just posted my opinion... 

Not getting personal, James. That's my view. Your comment or lack there of simply confirms it. I have seen very few posts from you that tell users to stay on the same page. You take every chance tio work against the Rules, and encourage everyone to do their own thing. Sorry, guy.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting m.cellophane:
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Quoting Unicus69:
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If memory serves, the actors were listed in 'first/middle/last' format.  For Chow Yun-Fat, that should have meant that he was listed as Yun-Fat Chow, right?  Well, he wasn't.  He was listed as 'Chow Yun-Fat'.  Why?  My guess is because, as is the tradition in his country, his family name comes first.

Were the actors listed as first/middle/last or were the listed with their names shown as they're customarily written? Aren't you assuming that they're shown first/middle/last? There's no "last name" field in a frame of film, but there is in DVD Profiler.

We should put the data in the field to which it belongs, as this is a database. Entering data based on its positional appearance and declaring a surname to be "not a last name if it's listed first" seems odd to me. It seems right to me to enter known surnames as last names and to use Credited As to mimic the appearance of the credits.

If a surname is listed first, it's not entered as a surname? That's what doesn't seem right to me. 

That is against the Rules, james.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorArdos
Registered: July 31, 2008
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The way I see it is that as the rules currently stand, he has to be listed with Chow in the first field regardless of its definition within Profiler.

The rules say, bolded by me -

Quote:
For any film with standard credits, take the actor information from the end credits only, with names and roles listed exactly as they are in the credits and in exactly the same order credited.
.

They don't say 'exactly except for...'.

Since Chow is listed first, it should be entered first.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
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Indeed, Forget. That is the intent. Except for those that wnat us to have all the accuracy, relative to the credits as IMDb.

Skip
ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here

Billy Video
 Last edited: by Winston Smith
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantmadacid
Erka-lerka-derka...:-)
Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting RHo:
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Quoting madacid:
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Quoting RHo:
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Last time I have checked my dictionary, family name, last name, and surname were synonyms.

+1
Thanks!
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and thats why the CLT is useless for nearly any hongkong, chinese or hungarian film and more (exceptions may appear).

No, the CLT is uefull for those credits. For example with our famous Yun-Fat Chow the CLT gives "CHOW YUN-FAT" as the most common credit for this person. We can document, that this credit consists of the family name "CHOW" and the given name "YUN-FAT". We apply standard capitalisation rules which results in "Chow" and "Yun-Fat". Then we store the family name in the approriate field (the one labeled last name) and the given name in the first name field (first name = given name). After this we see that profiler constructs the credit "Chow Yun-Fat" for this name. Therfore we haveto store "Chow Yun-Fat" in the credited as field.

All of this is completely conforming to the current rules. But I would welcome if Invelos would add such an example to the rules for clarification.
you are totally right Rho. What I meant was "using CLT-result without using brain"
regards, Mad  - 


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