Quoting T!M:

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Back on topic: just today, I audited a film which lists part of the cast at the start of the end credits, then loads and loads of crew, and then an additional batch of cast members. I've checked on other profiles, and there's not a single DVD Profiler user who doesn't instantly understand that they're part of the cast as well. Yet by your standard, you could actually argue that they're "OUTSIDE of the STANDARD cast list, as defined by the Rules", and should be left out. Except they shouldn't - and everyone intuitively understand that, even without five pages of bickering. I know how you like things to be black and white, but that's just not how the real world works, Skip.

I am sorry, but no.  With that statement, you are ignoring the following portion of the rules:

If a film does not have standard credits, use the following rules:

If a film has actors listed in the opening credits, which are not listed in the end credits, add these to the list in DVD Profiler before those taken from the end credits

.

If a film has no end credits, but does have actors credited elsewhere, enter the actors from those credits.

Your example is covered by the second bullet point which, in my opinion, further enforces my take on the term 'end credits' as used in the rules.

Quoting TheMadMartian:

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Quoting T!M:

Quote:
Back on topic: just today, I audited a film which lists part of the cast at the start of the end credits, then loads and loads of crew, and then an additional batch of cast members. I've checked on other profiles, and there's not a single DVD Profiler user who doesn't instantly understand that they're part of the cast as well. Yet by your standard, you could actually argue that they're "OUTSIDE of the STANDARD cast list, as defined by the Rules", and should be left out. Except they shouldn't - and everyone intuitively understand that, even without five pages of bickering. I know how you like things to be black and white, but that's just not how the real world works, Skip.

I am sorry, but no.  With that statement, you are ignoring the following portion of the rules:

If a film does not have standard credits, use the following rules:

If a film has actors listed in the opening credits, which are not listed in the end credits, add these to the list in DVD Profiler before those taken from the end credits

.

If a film has no end credits, but does have actors credited elsewhere, enter the actors from those credits.

Your example is covered by the second bullet point which, in my opinion, further enforces my take on the term 'end credits' as used in the rules.

I do not see how it enforces your interpretation.  Nowhere in your quoted text does it even imply that end credits means only cast/actors.

Quoting hal9g:

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I do not see how it enforces your interpretation.  Nowhere in your quoted text does it even imply that end credits means only cast/actors.

I didn't expect that you would...which is why I said, "in my opinion."  As I have stated, several times now, your position just doesn't make any sense to me.  No matter how hard I try, I can't wrap my head around it.  I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. 

And you are ignoring what the Rules actually say so that you can create an interpretaion that ekliminates the PRIMARY rule, for your own purposes, Hal.

Once again the primary Rule for cast defines what Cast IS and is not.

"For the purposes of this section we define "standard" film credits as those where all credited actors involved are listed together in a single section at the end of the film - defined here as the "end credits". The section details both the actor’s Name and the Role that they played in the film. The credits may be listed "in order of appearance", "alphabetical order" or in an order of importance decided by the filmmakers. Some actors may be credited a second time in either credits at either the opening or close of the film."

Your interpretation completely invalidates that Rule and that alone should be enough totell you that you are dead wrong. And simply leaning on the use of a single word to invalidate the rule.

Skip

Quoting hal9g:

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I do not believe that you can accurately speak to what "anybody has ever seen".

It is doubtful that you personally have seen all credits to know that this has never been done.

Really?  Is that really your counter argument?  Couldn't you come up with a better, more logical one? 

Quote:
I do not pretend to know what was in the minds of the Rules writers, and it doesn't matter.  The only thing that matters is what the Rules actually say, as you have repeated yourself on numerous occasions.

And there is the sticking point...I do not believe the rule says what you believe it says.  My reason, as I have stated before, is that there is no reason to use the phrase defined here as the "end credits".  'Standard Credits' needed to be defined, 'end credits', did not.

Because there is no reason to define that term, I have to believe that it was done to make those two terms...'end credits' and 'standard credits'...interchangeable.  I am sorry, but you haven't given me any reason...not that you have to...to read it any other way.  Since you can't, or won't, I see no reason for us to discuss it any further. 

And this film uses STANDARD CREDITS as defined by the Rule, Hal. It has Actors and Roles in a list caled CAST and that list ends with

T-600 Suit Performer, after that is Stunts

As I said youi are ignoring the Rules to create an invalid interpretation, hal.

Let me explain Hal

"For the purposes of this section we define "standard" film credits as those where all credited actors involved are listed together in a single section at the end of the film - defined here as the "end credits".

Andthere you have it the definition of STANDARD Credits which this film does utilize, and your contribution ignores that on the basis that you believe the Puppeteers are Cast despite the Rule definition and you are then trying desperately to call them some non-standard form of credits. The Rules also define what Profiler calls non-standard Credits.

"If a film does not have standard credits, use the following rules:

    * If a film has actors listed in the opening credits, which are not listed in the end credits, add these to the list in DVD Profiler before those taken from the end credits.
    * If a film has no end credits, but does have actors credited elsewhere, enter the actors from those credits.
    * If an actor is credited by name but does not have an associated role, you may use the film itself, or another source to identify the role. However, mass copy from a third party commercial database which violates their stated usage license is not allowed. In each case, list Actor’s names and roles (when given) exactly as they are in the credits and in exactly the same order credited."

This film does not meet these criteria either because it uses Standard credits, only THEN can we address the additional possibilities and puppeteers do not meet the criteria of either Standard or non-Standard in this case as has been detailed. You simply believe that YOU can determine what is Cast and that you know far more than those who made the film. Had the puppeteers been considered actors, they would have been included with the cast and not separated from it. You are just simply wrong because you ignore everything except that which you are interested in which is the word Puppeteer.

Skip

And you continue to ignore the fact that the role of puppeteer is mentioned in only one place in the Rules.  Under Cast!  Nowhere does is say sometimes puppeteers are cast and sometimes not.  They are mentioned only in the cast section of the Rules.  How you come to the conclusion that they may not be part of the cast is beyond me.  Since puppeteers are part of the cast, that means this film does not have "standard" credits.

Martian:

I have tried to create a logical argument to support Hal, but when I read the entire Rule, it just ain't possible. Sure if I focus on Puppeteer like hal does...but as i explained that argument completely negates the Rule as a whole.

Skip