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Invelos Forums->General: General Discussion |
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Gas Prices in U.S. Hit Record High...again |
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| Author |
Message |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Mithi: Quote:
Quoting chibul:
Quote:
They ARE using the quote feature right.
See Rifters Posting from May 22, 2008 1:30 PM ... what is Rifters Text?
cya, Mithi Rifter's text: Quote:
You've missed the point entirely. The US is largely responsible for the technology that has cleaned up the air and water and that is used around the world to do that job. Hanging some ridiculous pseudo scientific requirements on us to reduce even more would cost so much that it would jeopardize future research into new technology, and that would be detrimental to the entire world. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 3,436 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting chibul: Quote:
Are you kidding me?
They ARE using the quote feature right. Sorry if it hurts you terribly to scroll down a little. Well, almost... I agree that sometimes quoting the entire text is necessary (and just to be safe Rifter has always made a point of doing so...), but to use it right you also need to write the new text outeide of the blockquote tags...  | | | Achim [諾亞信； Ya-Shin//Nuo], a German in Taiwan.
Registered: May 29, 2000 (at InterVocative) |
| | Registered: May 12, 2007 | | Posts: 11 |
| | Posted: | | | | Is it me, or has this post gotten WAY off topic? |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 1,380 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Rifter: Quote:
China doesn't want to spend its money on technology -- it would rather spend it on weapons and the military, and as long as the bleeding hearts and do-gooders of the world give them a pass that allows them to just get by, they will continue. Not so funny thing is, if you would swap the countries it would be true. US uses over twice as much money from GDP to its military compared to China. Counting by dollars it uses 10 times more. Also China is planning on using more environmentally friendly coal power plants in 2009. How much it would actually help, i dont know. Quoting Rifter: Quote:
The point here is that US industry and infrastructure will upgrade and innovate to keep the air and water clean because it is good business to do so, NOT because a bunch of junk science whackos try to force them to with bogus treaties. I dont get it, if US would actually do that, the Kyoto protocol wouldnt cost you any extra money. But i think you'de have to be incredibly naive to think a company thats only aim is to make profit, would use more expensive equiment to make the same thing other companys do cheaper. That is the reason we need laws, because companys will only do just as much as they have to. So we much raise the bar of what they have to do. Quoting Rifter: Quote:
You've missed the point entirely. The US is largely responsible for the technology that has cleaned up the air and water and that is used around the world to do that job. Hanging some ridiculous pseudo scientific requirements on us to reduce even more would cost so much that it would jeopardize future research into new technology, and that would be detrimental to the entire world. What is this US technology you're talking about? The power plant their building here has french reactors (European Pressurized Water Reactor, it will be the worlds first, and biggest), the one their planning to build would have french or japanese (Toshiba, which i thought was kinda funny) reactors, most solar panels come from germany. Dont know about our hydrogen power plants but id expect the technology is from Europe or Russia. When it comes to new technology US is the biggest country hands down. But to even think its the only one is idiotic. | | | | Last edited: by whispering |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,694 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Mithi: Quote:
Quoting chibul:
Quote:
They ARE using the quote feature right.
See Rifters Posting from May 22, 2008 1:30 PM ... what is Rifters Text?
cya, Mithi I'd be interested in seeing that myself, but I don't find one from me with that time stamp. | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again! |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,694 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting whispering: Quote:
Quoting Rifter:
Quote:
China doesn't want to spend its money on technology -- it would rather spend it on weapons and the military, and as long as the bleeding hearts and do-gooders of the world give them a pass that allows them to just get by, they will continue.
Not so funny thing is, if you would swap the countries it would be true. US uses over twice as much money from GDP to its military compared to China. Counting by dollars it uses 10 times more.
Also China is planning on using more environmentally friendly coal power plants in 2009. How much it would actually help, i dont know. China, like Russia of old, has a problem with not having enough hard currency, which means they can't play at the same level as the US or Britain or Germany. They also have a problem obtaining low sulfur sweet coal to keep the pollution level down. So, they can't buy the costlier technology that cleans up the low grade coal to make it safer to burn, and they can't afford to buy cleaner fuel or better coal on the import market. I'd like to know how they're going to build cleaner power plants without it. Quote:
Quoting Rifter:
Quote:
The point here is that US industry and infrastructure will upgrade and innovate to keep the air and water clean because it is good business to do so, NOT because a bunch of junk science whackos try to force them to with bogus treaties.
I dont get it, if US would actually do that, the Kyoto protocol wouldnt cost you any extra money.
But i think you'de have to be incredibly naive to think a company thats only aim is to make profit, would use more expensive equiment to make the same thing other companys do cheaper. That is the reason we need laws, because companys will only do just as much as they have to. So we much raise the bar of what they have to do. Maybe it doesn't work this way in Europe, but US companies have a civic obligation to be good corporate citizens if they hope keep customers happy and grow. One of the ways they do that is making sure they don't damage the environment. As far as Kyoto, the cost to the US would be astronomical going on their timeline. It is easy to clean up pollution when you first start, but the closer you get to 0% pollution the higher the cost of the technology to get to the next step. Such technology doesn't happen overnight, and while US companies have made the commitment to do the research, it isn't the government footing the bill as it is in other countries like China and Russia. You can't meet arbitrary standards set by a bunch of pseudo scientists in that context. Quote:
Quoting Rifter:
Quote:
You've missed the point entirely. The US is largely responsible for the technology that has cleaned up the air and water and that is used around the world to do that job. Hanging some ridiculous pseudo scientific requirements on us to reduce even more would cost so much that it would jeopardize future research into new technology, and that would be detrimental to the entire world.
What is this US technology you're talking about? The power plant their building here has french reactors (European Pressurized Water Reactor, it will be the worlds first, and biggest), the one their planning to build would have french or japanese (Toshiba, which i thought was kinda funny) reactors, most solar panels come from germany. Dont know about our hydrogen power plants but id expect the technology is from Europe or Russia. When it comes to new technology US is the biggest country hands down. But to even think its the only one is idiotic. A nuclear reactor isn't technology used to clean up the environment. You are lucky that the environmental whackos haven't prevented you from building nuke power plants like they have here. We've had to find other ways to create the power we need, cleanly, and that is the technology that originates here and then moves out across the world. I also never said that we were the only source, but the majority of it comes from here. | | | John
"Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964
Make America Great Again! |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 1,242 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Rifter: Quote:
Quoting Mithi:
Quote:
Quoting chibul:
Quote:
They ARE using the quote feature right.
See Rifters Posting from May 22, 2008 1:30 PM ... what is Rifters Text?
cya, Mithi
I'd be interested in seeing that myself, but I don't find one from me with that time stamp. Try this one it reads with a 12:30 PM time stamp here in the UK, Time stamp being relevant to location. Posted: May 22, 2008 12:30 PM As follows:- Quoting lmoelleb: Quote: Quoting Unicus69: Quote: Quoting whispering: Quote: Because China is 'less developed', China is allowed to pursue a more flexible model for rapid economic development. China doesn't exist in a vacuum. Technology is available is they choose to buy it. They have not done so. Quote: Makes sense. After all Rifter was arguing that the worlds strongest economy could not affort to be slowed down by environmental issues. So obviously a far weaker economy can affort it even less. You've missed the point entirely. The US is largely responsible for the technology that has cleaned up the air and water and that is used around the world to do that job. Hanging some ridiculous pseudo scientific requirements on us to reduce even more would cost so much that it would jeopardize future research into new technology, and that would be detrimental to the entire world. John "Extremism in the defense of Liberty is no vice!" Senator Barry Goldwater, 1964 My Blog: Mad Gorilla's Jungle End of posting. Steve |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting whispering: Quote:
But i think you'de have to be incredibly naive to think a company thats only aim is to make profit, would use more expensive equiment to make the same thing other companys do cheaper. That is the reason we need laws, because companys will only do just as much as they have to. So we much raise the bar of what they have to do. I don't know what it is like in your country, but here the public does demand that companies have to clean up their act. As an example, and I learned this from watching the National Geographic Channel, the Port of Los Angeles has become the first port in the world to have container ships run on dock-side power while docked. Since the crew live on board during off-loading, container ships keep their engines running while in port. Ships that have the ability, can now plug into an outlet on the dock and turn their engines off. This will reduce emissions by 1 ton per ship, per day. In addition, they have instituted a dirty truck ban that will begin on October 1, 2008. By Jan. 1, 2012, all drayage trucks operating in the port complex will be required to meet 2007 federal emissions standards, which will reduce port-related truck pollution by an estimated 80 percent. These steps were taken voluntarily and will cost money. Why was it done? Because the public demanded it be done. There were no laws written, no treaties signed. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Yes indeed, Unicus. And this behavior happens across the board in every industry in the United States. There are some in thgis country, just as in other countries, that want the government to be our nanny and tle care of us because they believe I suppose that we lack the ability to take care of ourselves, or they are too lazy to take care of themselves, I don't know which.
Any place on the planet that has created a nanny state has been a horrendous failure and this will continue to be true.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 1,414 |
| | Posted: | | | | But it wouldn't have happened without a stink being made about it. You're acting as if these things happen in complete isolation.
Oh, and let me just say that I find srehtim's avatar of the gas prices hilarious. | | | | "This movie has warped my fragile little mind." | | | | Last edited: by gardibolt |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 |  Posts: 630 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting skipnet50: Quote:
Yes indeed, Unicus. And this behavior happens across the board in every industry in the United States. There are some in thgis country, just as in other countries, that want the government to be our nanny and tle care of us because they believe I suppose that we lack the ability to take care of ourselves, or they are too lazy to take care of themselves, I don't know which.
Maybe they just know enough about people to realize that there will always be a (not insignificent) number of people who will try to take personal advantage of everything. After all, a company will only get "punished" if people actually find out that they are poluting, so if left to themselves I would be very surprised if dodgy characters wouldn't try to get away with some pretty bad stuff. Sure they still do it today, but at least there is a chance to stop them as soon as it is realized (well, as soon as the government workers are back from vecation at least)  I wish I had the same faith in my fellow citizens you show (well, actually I do not wish it - I wish your faith was justified ). Quote:
Any place on the planet that has created a nanny state has been a horrendous failure and this will continue to be true.
Oh no, not the old "Everything to the left of me is socialism, socialism is the same as communism (which is terrorism)" story. | | | Regards
Lars |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting gardibolt: Quote:
But it wouldn't have happened without a stink being made about it. You're acting as if these things happen in complete isolation. You are correct, it was done because a stink was made. It was not, however, done because we signed a treaty or created new laws. The people simply spoke up and said, "if you want to continue to grow your business, you had better clean up your act." Bottom line, we don't need a treaty to tell us we need reduce our emissions. We can do it all by ourselves. I was simply giving an example to illustrate that point. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 630 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting gardibolt:
Quote:
But it wouldn't have happened without a stink being made about it. You're acting as if these things happen in complete isolation.
You are correct, it was done because a stink was made. It was not, however, done because we signed a treaty or created new laws.
Just wondering, what is "The Clean Water Act"? Quote:
The people simply spoke up and said, "if you want to continue to grow your business, you had better clean up your act."
Bottom line, we don't need a treaty to tell us we need reduce our emissions. We can do it all by ourselves. I was simply giving an example to illustrate that point. All this "we can do everything ourselves" is very nice and sounds great, but unfortunately various poluting substances somehow have problem readings maps. Just wondering: let's say your water supply was from ground water. If your neighbour was dumping chemicals in the ground thretening to polute this water, would you then say it's his own business because he is doing it on his own land? | | | Regards
Lars |
| | Registered: May 23, 2007 | | Posts: 83 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quote:
Is it me, or has this post gotten WAY off topic? |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting lmoelleb: Quote:
Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
Quoting gardibolt:
Quote:
But it wouldn't have happened without a stink being made about it. You're acting as if these things happen in complete isolation.
You are correct, it was done because a stink was made. It was not, however, done because we signed a treaty or created new laws.
Just wondering, what is "The Clean Water Act"? It is a federal regulation passed in 1972 that governs water pollution...but you already knew that. I fail to see what your point is. Have we passed enviornmental laws? Yes we have. But that doesn't change the fact that some industries are also doing things on their own. Quote:
All this "we can do everything ourselves" is very nice and sounds great, but unfortunately various poluting substances somehow have problem readings maps. You are missing the point. There are people in this thread who have claimed that the US doesn't care about the environment simply because we didn't sign Kyoto. I am countering that claim by giving examples that show we do, in fact, care. You may not like our "we can do everything ourselves" attitude, but Kyoto isn't any better. As the numbers I have given show, some of the countries that have signed it have increased their carbon emissions at a rate fairly equal to that of the US. The UK, after signing, has reached a 10-year high. Quote:
Just wondering: let's say your water supply was from ground water. If your neighbour was dumping chemicals in the ground thretening to polute this water, would you then say it's his own business because he is doing it on his own land? This is a flawed and self serving question as it doesn't account for the fact that I am also dumping those chemicals...unless you are suggesting that the US is the only country creating pollution.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,436 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Rifter: Quote:
I'd be interested in seeing that myself, but I don't find one from me with that time stamp. It's this one (the time stamp varies depending on the user's location  ): Quoting Rifter: Quote:
Quoting lmoelleb:
Quote:
Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
Quoting whispering:
Quote:
Because China is 'less developed', China is allowed to pursue a more flexible model for rapid economic development.
China doesn't exist in a vacuum. Technology is available is they choose to buy it. They have not done so.
Quote:
Makes sense. After all Rifter was arguing that the worlds strongest economy could not affort to be slowed down by environmental issues. So obviously a far weaker economy can affort it even less.
You've missed the point entirely. The US is largely responsible for the technology that has cleaned up the air and water and that is used around the world to do that job. Hanging some ridiculous pseudo scientific requirements on us to reduce even more would cost so much that it would jeopardize future research into new technology, and that would be detrimental to the entire world. | | | Achim [諾亞信； Ya-Shin//Nuo], a German in Taiwan.
Registered: May 29, 2000 (at InterVocative) | | | | Last edited: by nuoyaxin |
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Invelos Forums->General: General Discussion |
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