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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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More fun with credits |
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| Registered: May 26, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 2,879 |
| | Posted: | | | | The credits for this documentary - National Geographic: Prehistoric Predators Sabertooth - are very minimal on screen, only director, producers and narrator, as well as a list of special thanks to. At the end of the minimal credits it tells you to go to nationalgeographic.com/channel for full production credits. Those are here. I wondered if this was allowable to contribute for the executive producers, editor, music, sound, wardrobe, makeup, visual effects, the rest of the cast, etc... Or if the fact that you have to go to the website makes these people uncredited, and therefore not able to contribute the crew. Right now I have the profile just listing the three on screen credits, since I figure the website part is dicey, but it does list the website on screen so that's what's making me go "but wait a minute, should it..." | | | If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- Thorin Oakenshield |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 951 |
| | Posted: | | | | Unfortunately not only on screen credits are allowed for crew.
Now for cast, many documentaries do not credit them like standard movie credits but, do credit them as they appear on screen. In those cases they are credited just not using standard movie crediting. You would just enter them as they appear on screen when they are credited. If they are not credited on screen at all then just do the (uncredited) with supporting documentation. The web link you provided should work for any (uncredited) cast. | | | Are you local?
This is a local shop the strangers you would bring would not understand us, our customs, our local ways. |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Danae Cassandra: Quote:
but it does list the website on screen so that's what's making me go "but wait a minute, should it..." I can see your point. I'd certainly enter them locally, but I'd be interested to know how Ken or Gerri feels about contributing this. Especially as I'm guessing that there are more National Geographic discs using the same principle. After all, there is a very valid source for this data, which is referred to on-screen. It could be argued that the on-line credits page is some kind of "extension" of the on-screen credits. Basically, I'm thinking of usefulness: is it better to let every user who owns this DVD copy the data into their local databases by themselves, or is it more useful to profile it and share it through the Invelos database? |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 906 |
| | Posted: | | | | If I understand this correctly, this is kinda like the British series Spooks. No credits were given on screen, everything was on the Spooks website when the show was aired.
The difference to the situation at hand is that the credits was included on the DVD as a special feature. These crew credits were allowed.
Just some food for thought | | | 
The colour of her eyes, were the colour of insanity |
| | Registered: March 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,018 |
| | Posted: | | | | Following the Contribution Rules to the letter, these would not be allowed for Crew. For Cast they could be marked uncredited with the website mentioned as the source in your contribution notes. Having said that, I do suppose this is one of those cases that were not envisaged when the rules were drafted the way they are now, and I can't imagine a more authoritative source than one you are being referred to by the documentary producers themselves. So I do believe a strong case could be made for entering and contributing them. If you decide to do so, I would recommend explaining exactly in your contribution notes what the deal is. And I agree with T!M that a statement by Ken/Gerri on this issue would certainly be helpful. EDIT: I posted a link to this thread in the Contribution Rules Committee in Gerri's thread asking for ideas regarding rules updates. I hope it will prompt something. | | | | Last edited: by dee1959jay |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Without an exception posted by Ken or Gerri, unfortunately, that would not be a valid source. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 6,730 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Danae Cassandra: Quote:
The credits for this documentary - National Geographic: Prehistoric Predators Sabertooth - are very minimal on screen, only director, producers and narrator, as well as a list of special thanks to. At the end of the minimal credits it tells you to go to nationalgeographic.com/channel for full production credits. Wow! Just when you think you've seen it all.  Regarding the crew credits I agree with Tracer, concerning the cast I agree with TheMadMartian (and would enter them locally) | | | It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?
Registrant since 05/22/2003 |
| | Registered: May 26, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,879 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Without an exception posted by Ken or Gerri, unfortunately, that would not be a valid source. Call me the grammar nazi here  , but from my perspective the source is perfectly valid (it's not a 3rd party database, and after all those are the credits), I just figured it likely was not acceptable under the current rules. Thanks for confirming my suspicions everyone  . I'll go ahead and submit what I have and then enter the rest of the credits locally. (edited for clarity) | | | If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- Thorin Oakenshield | | | | Last edited: by Danae Cassandra |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Danae Cassandra: Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
Without an exception posted by Ken or Gerri, unfortunately, that would not be a valid source.
Call me the grammar nazi here , but from my perspective the source is perfectly valid (it's not a 3rd party database, and after all those are the credits), I just figured it likely was not acceptable under the current rules. From the rules: Take Crew Credits from the film credits only. For them to be film credits, they have to be part of the film. Since they are not, they are not a valid source.  Never mess with a parser.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
From the rules: Take Crew Credits from the film credits only. For them to be film credits, they have to be part of the film. Just playing the devil's advocate here: says who? These credits are the actual film credits - they're just published elsewhere. What's the difference with the aforementioned 'Spooks' example? Those credits aren't part of the film either, yet we enter those. |
| | Registered: May 26, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,879 |
| | Posted: | | | | It's semantics in my head, Martian. When I think of something being not a valid source, I think of it being likely incorrect ... ergo, IMDB or its ilk. These being the actual credits, they're quite valid as I see it, otherwise I wouldn't transcribe them into my local. However, they're aren't an acceptable source as far as Profiler is concerned, because they're not on screen. That's what I actually figured was the case, I just figured I'd ask since the credits on screen directed on to it.
And I think the difference, T!M, is that the Spooks credits were included as a special feature on the DVD. These aren't, they're online only. | | | If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- Thorin Oakenshield |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Danae Cassandra: Quote:
And I think the difference, T!M, is that the Spooks credits were included as a special feature on the DVD. These aren't, they're online only. I do see that. But even though they were included on the disc, it still doesn't mesh with TheMadMartian's assumption that "they have to be part of the film." That wasn't the case for 'Spooks', and it's not the case here either. So I still don't see how we could reach different conclusions. I for one don't see the rules saying that "they have to be part of the film." Yes, they say to take the data from the film credits, but through the on-screen inclusion of the link, I feel that the on-line credits page has become a valid part of the film credits. IMHO, the key remains that these are the actual credits. True, it's not exactly the method of presentation we're used to, but still: these are the credits. I'd certainly want them in my profile, and knowing that Danae Cassandra has already done the work, I'd prefer being able to download them from the database instead of having to enter them all over again myself. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: May 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,475 |
| | Posted: | | | | I think that I would submit the profile, explain the situation and let the screeners decide. Although, as others have mentioned, this might not follow the rules explicitly Ken and Gerri might make an exception in this case. |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,245 |
| | Posted: | | | | I agree with T!M on this.
Let's play Devil's Advocate and say we come across a dvd that has no credits whatsoever. Not in the actual film credits and nowhere on the DVD packaging or on any menu screen.
However, as in the OP there is a link provided that shows all the films credits.
What would we do in such a case as that?
1. Follow the rules to the letter and have no cast or crew.
2. Or enter them as per the website link and explain the situation in the contribution notes.
Is it better to have no cast/crew in an effort to follow the rules to the letter or is it better to include the cast/crew provided by the website?
In other words is nothing worth more than everything?
So in this rare case and as in the OP I say contribute the cast/crew data and in as detailed as possible explain the situation in the notes and let the screeners decide. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
From the rules: Take Crew Credits from the film credits only. For them to be film credits, they have to be part of the film.
Just playing the devil's advocate here: says who? These credits are the actual film credits - they're just published elsewhere. While not stated specifically, it is implied once you get to the cast section: "For the purposes of this section we define "standard" film credits as those where all credited actors involved are listed together in a single section at the end of the film." Unless someone wants to see it a different way, for whatever reason, it is fairly clear that 'film credits' are those that appear on the film. Quote:
What's the difference with the aforementioned 'Spooks' example? Those credits aren't part of the film either, yet we enter those. No, we don't. You might. Other people might. I wouldn't. While I understand the desire and the value, I contribute based on the rules and, as it stands, the rules do not allow it. If, however, Ken or Gerri wish to make an exception for these cases, I am happy to comply. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Danae Cassandra: Quote:
It's semantics in my head, Martian. When I think of something being not a valid source, I think of it being likely incorrect ... ergo, IMDB or its ilk. These being the actual credits, they're quite valid as I see it, otherwise I wouldn't transcribe them into my local. However, they're aren't an acceptable source as far as Profiler is concerned, because they're not on screen.
Just so you understand where I am coming from, this is the contribution forum. All my answers are based on what is and isn't valid, based on my interpretation of the rules. So when I say something isn't a valid source, I mean for profiler purposes.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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